¿¡¸¥½ºÆ®
Æù ±Û¶óÀú½ºÆçÆ®¿Í
ÀÎÅͺä
Constructing
Communication
Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼Ç
±¸¼ºÇϱâ
¹ø¿ª:
»ìŬ¸®
Andrea
Pitasi (AP): Today as of August 21st 2001, we
are at professor Von Glasersfeld's place, and
we are starting our interview about constructivism
and communication studies. I'm very grateful
to you, Professor Ernst von Glasersfeld, and
I am delighted to be here. It's very kind of
you to give me your time for this interview.
Thank you very much. I would be interested in
the most important theoretical foundations of
constructivism and how, in your opinion, these
foundations could be applied in communication
studies.
Andrea
Pitasi (AP): ¿À´Ã, 2001³â 8¿ù 21ÀÏ, Æù ±Û¶óÀú½ºÆçÆ®°¡
ÀÏÇϽô °÷¿¡ ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±¸¼ºÁÖÀÇ¿Í Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼Ç
¿¬±¸¿¡ °üÇÑ ÀÎÅͺ並 ½ÃÀÛÇÏ°Ú½À´Ï´Ù. ¿¡¸¥½ºÆ®
Æù ±Û¶óÀú½ºÆçÆ® ±³¼ö´Ô, °í¸¿½À´Ï´Ù. ±×¸®°í ¿©±â
¿À´Ï ±â»Ú³×¿ä. ÀÎÅͺ信 ÀÀÇØÁּż Á¤¸» °í¸¿½À´Ï´Ù.
Àú´Â ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ °¡Àå Áß¿äÇÑ ÀÌ·ÐÀû Åä´ëµé¿¡ °ü½ÉÀÌ
ÀÖÀ¸¸ç, À̵é Åä´ëµéÀÌ Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀÌ¼Ç ¿¬±¸µé¿¡
¾î¶»°Ô Àû¿ëµÉ ¼ö ÀÖ´Â Áö, ±³¼ö´Ô °ßÇØ¿¡ °ü½ÉÀÌ
ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
Ernst
von Glasersfeld (EvG): Well...you know, that's
a question that one can answer by writing a
book or in one phrase. The on-phrase answer
would be that "radical" constructivism
does away with the traditional conception of
communication. For your purposes, however, it
might be better if I answer the question on
a more personal level. How did I get into constructivism?
And that was, in the first place because I was
brought up with more than one language, and
if you live in more than one language you very
soon realize that there isn't one reality, but
there are several different realities. This
created my interest in epistemology long before
I knew what the word epistemology meant.
¿¡¸¥½ºÆ®
Æù ±Û¶óÀú½ºÆçÆ® (EvG): À½¡¦ ¾Æ½Ã´Ù½ÃÇÇ, ±×°Ç
Ã¥À» ÇÑ ±Ç ½á¼ ´äÀ» ÇÏ´øÁö, ¾Æ´Ï¸é ÇÑ ±¸Àý·Î
´äÇÒ ¼ö ÀÖ´Â ¹®Á¦ÁÒ. ÇÑ ±¸Àý·Î ´äÇϸé, "±Ùº»Àû
¶Ç´Â ±ÞÁøÀû" ±¸¼º·ÐÀº ÀüÅëÀû Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼Ç
°³³äÀ» Æó±âóºÐÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×·¸Áö¸¸,
Áú¹®ÇϽŠ¹Ù¿¡ ¸ÂÃß¾î, º¸´Ù »çÀûÀÎ Â÷¿ø¿¡¼ Áú¹®¿¡
´äÇÏ´Â °ÍÀÌ ³ªÀ» µí Çϳ׿ä. ³ ¾î¶»°Ô ±¸¼º·Ð¿¡
ÀÔ¹®ÇÏ°Ô µÇ¾ú´Â°¡? ¿ì¼±Àº, ³»°¡ Çϳª ÀÌ»óÀÇ
¾ð¾î·Î ¾çÀ°µÈ ¶§¹®Àε¥, Çϳª ÀÌ»óÀÇ ¾ð¾î¸¦ ¾²´Â
°÷¿¡¼ »ì¸é, Çö½ÇÀ̳ª ½ÇÀç´Â Çϳª°¡ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó ¼·Î
´Ù¸¥ ¿©·¯ °³¶ó´Â °É °ð¹Ù·Î ±ú´ÝÁö¿ä. ÀÌ·Î ÀÎÇØ
Àνķп¡ °ü½ÉÀ» °®°Ô µÇ¾ú¾î¿ä. ´Ü¾î ÀνķÐÀÌ
¶æÇß´ø ¹Ù¸¦ ³»°¡ ¾Ë±â ¿À·¡ ÀüÀÇ ÀÏÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
The
second reason, if you like, is that when I began
to read epistemology I found it fascinating
but also very unsatisfactory; the unsatisfactory
part is that, from the very beginning of Western
philosophy and epistemology, there were people
who said that it is impossible to get to know
an absolute reality and they had very good arguments,
arguments that were never refuted by the philosophers.
The philosophers tried to get round the arguments
in one way or another, but they all ended up
in metaphysics, which is fine but it's not a
rational enterprise.
¶Ç
Çϳª´Â, ÀνķÐÀ» Àб⠽ÃÀÛÇÏ¸é¼ ³ ±×°ÍÀÌ Èï¹ÌÁøÁøÇÑ
°ÍÀÓÀ» ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷·ÈÁö¸¸ ¶ÇÇÑ ¾ÆÁÖ ºÒ¸¸½º·¯¿üÁö¿ä.
ºÒ¸¸½º·¯¿ü´ø °Ç, ¼¾ç öÇаú ÀνķÐÀÌ ½ÃÀ۵ǴÂ
¹Ù·Î ½ÃÁ¡ºÎÅÍ Àý´ëÀû ½ÇÀ縦 ¾Æ´Â °Í¿¡ À̸£´Â
°ÍÀº ºÒ°¡´ÉÇÏ´Ù°í ¸»ÇÑ À̵éÀÌ ÀÖ¾ú´Ù´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù.
±×µéÀº ¾ÆÁÖ ÈǸ¢ÇÏ°Ô ³íÁõÇß°í, ±× ³íÁõµé¿¡ öÇÐÀÚµéÀº
ÀüÇô ¹Ý¹ÚÀ» ¸øÇß½À´Ï´Ù. öÇÐÀÚµéÀº Çϳª ¶Ç´Â
±× ÀÌ»óÀÇ ¹æ½ÄÀ¸·Î ±× ³íÁõµéÀ» ¸ð¸éÇÏ·Á°í ÇßÁö¸¸,
¸ðµÎ °á±¹ ÇüÀÌ»óÇÐÀ¸·Î °á¸»À» Áþ°í ¸»¾Ò¾î¿ä.
ÇüÀÌ»óÇÐÀº ¼¼·ÃµÈ °ÍÀ̱â´Â ÇÏÁö¸¸ ÇÕ¸®ÀûÀÎ ±âȹÀº
¾Æ´ÏÁÒ.
They
could not handle the doubt that was launched
by the Sceptics beginning with Pyrrho and others.
ÇǷаú
±×¹Û¿¡ À̵é·Î ½ÃÀ۵Ǿî ȸÀÇ·ÐÀÚµéÀÌ ¶ç¾î¿Ã·È´ø
ÀÇȤÀ» ±×µé öÇÐÀÚµéÀº ´Ù·ê ¼ö ¾ø¾ú¾î¿ä.
So
I kept on reading. And I was lucky. I spent
some years in Ireland and through a peculiar
connection I became interested in Gian Battista
Vico. Joyce's "Finnegans Wake" is
based on Vico's philosophy. I was (and am) a
great admirer of Joyce and I thought if he can
base his last book on Vico, I had to read Vico.
±×·¡¼
°è¼ÓÇؼ ÀоúÁö¿ä. ±×¸®°í Çà¿îÀÌ Ã£¾Æ¿Ô¾î¿ä.
¾ÆÀÏ·£µå¿¡¼ ¸î ³âÀ» º¸³»´Â »çÀÌ Æ¯º°ÇÑ Àο¬À¸·Î
Àá¹åƼ½ºÅ¸ ºñ²¿¿¡ °ü½ÉÀ» °®°Ô µÇ¾ú¾î¿ä. Á¶À̽ºÀÇ
"Çdzװǽº ¿þÀÌÅ©"´Â ±× ¹ÙÅÁÀ» ºñ²¿
öÇп¡ µÎ°í ÀÖ¾ú¾î¿ä. ³ª´Â Á¶À̽º¿¡ ´ëÇØ ¾öû
°¨ÅºÇßÀ¸¸ç Áö±Ýµµ ±×·¯°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ±×°¡ ºñ²¿¿¡
¹ÙÅÁÀ» µÎ°í ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ ¸¶Áö¸· Ã¥À» ½è´Ù¸é ³ ºñ²¿¸¦
Àоî¾ß ÇÑ´Ù°í »ý°¢Çß¾î¿ä.
And
I was lucky because in the library in Dublin
there was an old edition of Vico's "Scienza
Nuova" in Italian, which I don't think
anyone had ever read. But I could read it, and
so I got into Vico.
±×¸®°í
´õºí¸° µµ¼°ü¿¡ ºñ²¿ÀÇ "Scienza Nuova(»õ·Î¿î
°úÇÐ)"°¡ ¿À·¡µÇ¾úÁö¸¸ ÀÌŸ®¾î ÆÇÀ¸·Î ÀÖ¾ú´Ù´Â
°ÍÀº ³ªÇÑÅÙ Çà¿îÀ̾ú¾î¿ä. ±× ´©±¸µµ ±× Àü¿¡´Â
ÀÐÁö ¾Ê¾Ò´ø °Í °°¾Ò¾î¿ä. ±×·¯³ª ³ ÀÐÀ» ¼ö ÀÖ¾ú°í
±×·¸°Ô ºñ²¿ÇÑÅ× À̸¦ ¼ö ÀÖ¾ú¾î¿ä.
At
the same time I had two friends who were interested
in philosophy and we talked about Berkeley,
George Berkeley, the Irish philosopher. Vico
and Berkeley are two philosophers who are, I
think, the most likely starting points of constructivism.
And then you have Kant who was very much a constructivist.
He covered, I would say, about 80% of the ground
of constructivism. But, as Schopenhauer later
noticed, he was not quite consistent about it.
He also was a careful man and realized that
his was an unpopular philosophy. Perhaps that
was one reason not to be too explicit about
it.
¾Æ¿ï·¯
±×¶§ öÇп¡ °ü½ÉÀ» µÐ µÎ ¸íÀÇ Ä£±¸¸¦ »ç±Í¾ú°í
¿ì¸®´Â ¹öŬ¸®, ¾ÆÀÏ·£µå öÇÐÀÚ, Á¶Áö ¹öŬ¸®¿¡
´ëÇØ À̾߱⸦ ³ª´©¾úÁö¿ä. ºñ²¿¿Í ¹öŬ¸®´Â, ³»
»ý°¢À¸·Î, ±¸¼º·Ð°ú °ü·ÃÇؼ °¡Àå ±×·²½ÎÇÑ Ãâ¹ßÁ¡µéÀÏ
¼ö Àִ öÇÐÀÚµéÀÌÁö¿ä. ±×¸®°í ÀÌ¾î ¾ÆÁÖ ´ë´ÜÇÑ
±¸¼º·ÐÀÚÀÎ ÄÆ®¸¦ ¾Ë°Ô µÇ¾úÁö¿ä. ±×´Â ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ
¹ÙÅÁ°ú °ü·ÃÇؼ ¾à 80% Á¤µµ ´Ù·ç¾ú´Ù°í ¸»ÇÏ°í
½Í½À´Ï´Ù. ±×·¸Áö¸¸, ¼îÆæÇÏ¿ì¾î°¡ ÈÄ¿¡ ÁöÀûÇß´ø
¹Ù¿Í °°ÀÌ, ÄÆ®ÇÑÅ×´Â ±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ °üÇØ ÀÏ°üµÇÁö
¾ÊÀº °ÍÀÌ ²Ï ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ÄÆ® ¶ÇÇÑ Á¶½É½º·± »ç¶÷À̾î¼
±×ÀÇ Ã¶ÇÐÀÌ Àαâ¾ø´Â öÇÐÀÓÀ» ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸®°í ÀÖ¾ú¾î¿ä.
¾Æ¸¶µµ ±×°ÍÀÌ ±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ °üÇØ ³Ê¹« ¸í½ÃÀûÀ¸·Î
µå·¯³»Áö ¾ÊÀº ÇϳªÀÇ ÀÌÀ¯°¡ ¾Æ´Ò±î ÇÏ´Â »ý°¢ÀÌ
µå³×¿ä.
Those
are to me the main sources of constructivism.
³ªÇÑÅ×´Â
ÀÌ·¯ÇÑ °ÍµéÀÌ ±¸¼º·ÐÀ» Á¶¼ºÇÏ´Â ÁÖ¿ä ÃâóµéÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
AP:
I see and I completely agree also with your
interpretation of these theoretical roots and
it is sad to find out that one of the greatest
philosophers of all times had to be careful
and to protect himself from the Zeitgeist, a
paradox for a pre-constructivist.
AP:
À̵é ÀÌ·ÐÀû »Ñ¸®/¹ÙÅÁµé¿¡ ´ëÇØ Àú´Â ±³¼ö´ÔÀÇ
Çؼ®À» ÀÌÇØÇÏ¸ç ¶ÇÇÑ ÀüÀûÀ¸·Î µ¿ÀÇÇÏ°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
±×¸®°í ¸ðµç ½Ã´ë¸¦ ÅëƲ¾î °¡Àå À§´ëÇÑ Ã¶ÇÐÀÚµé
°¡¿îµ¥ ÇÑ ¸íÀÌ Á¶½É½º·¯¿öÇÒ ¼ö¹Û¿¡ ¾ø¾ú´Ù´Â,
±× ½Ã´ëÁ¤½ÅÀ¸·ÎºÎÅÍ, ±¸¼º·Ð ÀÌÀü ³íÀÚÇÑÅ׳ª
¾î¿ï¸®´Â ¿ª¼³·ÎºÎÅÍ ÀÚ½ÅÀ» º¸È£Çϱâ À§ÇØ ±×·²
¼ö¹Û¿¡ ¾ø¾ú´Ù´Â Áø»óÀ» ¾Ë°í³ª´Ï, ½½ÇÄÀÌ ¹Ð·Á¿À³×¿ä.
EvG:
And then comes Piaget who, after all, introduced
the term constructivism in the last century
(20th century, ndr) and became the constructivist
par excellence.
EvG:
±×¸®°í ÀÌ¾î »ß¾ÆÁ¦¸¦ ¾Ë¾ÒÁö¿ä. ±×´Â ¿ë¾î ±¸¼º·ÐÀ»
°á±¹ ÀÌ ¸¶Áö¸·(20) ¼¼±â¿¡ µµÀÔÇÑ »ç¶÷ÀÌÀÚ ¾ÆÁÖ
Ź¿ùÇÑ ±¸¼º·ÐÀÚ°¡ µÇ¾úÁö¿ä.
AP:
Perfect, thank you very much. Well, before you
told me about your best way, I mean the personal
way to explain the way you approach constructivism
and I already know that you are interested in
Vico as a person who more or less created the
constructivism before constructivism. And you
also quoted the "Antiquissima", another
work in your book, a work by Vico.
AP:
¿Ïº®Çϳ׿ä. °í¸¿½À´Ï´Ù. À½¡¦ ±³¼ö´Ô ÀÌ·¸°Ô ¸»¾¸ÇϽñâ
Àü, ±³¼ö´ÔÀÌ ±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ Á¢±ÙÇÏ´Â ¹æ½ÄÀ» ¼³¸íÇÏ´Â
»çÀû ¹æ½ÄÀÌ ±³¼ö´Ô ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ ÃÖ¼±ÀÇ ¹æ½ÄÀ̸®¶ó
»ý°¢Çß½À´Ï´Ù. ±×¸®°í ±³¼ö´ÔÀÌ ±¸¼º·Ð ÀÌÀü¿¡
°ÅÀÇ ±ÙÁ¢ÇÑ ±¸¼º·ÐÀ» âÁ¶Çß´ø ÇÑ »ç¶÷À¸·Î¼
ºñ²¿ÇÑÅ× °ü½ÉÀ» µÎ°í ÀÖÀ½À» ÀÌ¹Ì ¾Ë°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
±×¸®°í ¶ÇÇÑ ±³¼ö´Ô Ã¥¿¡¼ ºñ²¿ÀÇ ÀúÀÛ, "Antiquissima(°í´ë
ÀÌŸ®ÀÎÀÇ ÁöÇý)"¸¦ ¶Ç ÇϳªÀÇ ÀúÀÛÀ¸·Î
ÀοëÇϼÌÁö¿ä.
EvG:
Yes, yes.
EvG:
¸Â¾Æ¿ä. ¸Â½À´Ï´Ù.
AP:
As you know Vico is no longer a famous philosopher
in Italy, unfortunately...
AP:
¾Æ½Ã´Ù½ÃÇÇ, ºñ²¿´Â ºÒÇàÈ÷µµ ÀÌŸ®¿¡¼´Â ´õ
ÀÌ»ó À¯¸íÇÑ Ã¶ÇÐÀÚ°¡ ¾Æ´Õ´Ï´Ù.
EvG:
Yes, a misfortune, indeed!
EvG:
±×·¸ÁÒ. Á¤¸» ºÒÇàÇÑ ÀÏÀÌÁÒ.
AP:
But, you know, I have also some personal reasons
to be interested in Vico because Vico is very
much studied and still considered in the Suor
Orsola University of Naples where I work so,
you know, he's one of the pillars of local philosophy.
AP:
±×·¯³ª, ¾Æ½Ã´Â °ÅÁö¸¸, Àú ¶ÇÇÑ ºñ²¿¿¡ Èï¹Ì¸¦
°®°Ô µÈ ¸î¸î °³ÀÎÀû ÀÌÀ¯µéÀÌ ÀÖÁö¿ä.Á¦°¡ ÀÏÇÑ,
¾Æ½Ã´Ù½ÃÇÇ, ³ªÆú¸®ÀÇ Suor Orsola ´ëÇп¡¼´Â,
±× °íÀå öÇÐÀÇ ±âµÕµé °¡¿îµ¥ ÇϳªÀÎ ºñ²¿¸¦ ¾ÆÁÖ
¸¹ÀÌ ¿¬±¸ÇÏ°í ÀÖÀ¸¸ç º¯ÇÔ¾ø´Â °ü½É ´ë»óÀÌÁö¿ä.
EvG:
Well, there is something that may amuse you.
When I retired from the department of psychology
at the University of Georgia I had been the
principal investigator of quite a number of
research projects and I thought I would like
to start a research project of my own now. I
wrote a proposal which I sent to the National
Science Foundation and several other agencies
and the proposal was to go to Naples and to
find out what happened when George Berkeley
was in Naples for three months and met some
of the people who knew Vico and must have met
Vico too. I wanted to go there to find out what
happened between Berkeley and Vico. Unfortunately
I never got money to do that.
EvG:
À½¡¦ ´ç½ÅÀ» Áñ°Ì°Ô ÇÒ °Å¸®°¡ ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ³»°¡ ±×·çÁö¾Æ
´ëÇÐ ½É¸®Çаú¿¡¼ ÀºÅðÇÒ ¶§, »ó´ç¼öÀÇ ¿¬±¸ ÇÁ·ÎÁ§Æ®µéÀÇ
Ã¥ÀÓ ¿¬±¸¿øÀ̾ú´Âµ¥, ÀÌÁ¦´Â ³» ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ ¿¬±¸ ÇÁ·ÎÁ§Æ®¸¦
½ÃÀÛÇÏ°í ½Í´Ù´Â »ý°¢ÀÌ µé¾ú¾î¿ä. Á¦¾È¼¸¦ ½á¼
National Science Foundation(±¹¸³°úÇÐÀç´Ü)°ú ±×¹Û¿¡ ¸î¸î ¿¡ÀÌÁ¯½Ãµé¿¡
º¸³Â´Âµ¥, ±× Á¦¾ÈÀ̶õ ³ªÆú¸®¿¡ °¡¼ ´ç½Ã Á¶Áö
¹öŬ¸®°¡ ³ªÆú¸®¿¡ 3°³¿ù µ¿¾È ÀÖÀ» ¶§ ¹ú¾îÁ³´ø
ÀÏÀ» ¾Ë¾Æº¸´Â °ÍÀ̾ú¾î¿ä. ´ç½Ã ±×´Â ºñ²¿¸¦ ¾Æ´Â
¸î¸î »ç¶÷µéÀ» ¸¸³µ´Âµ¥ ±×¶§ ºñ²¿ ¶ÇÇÑ ºÐ¸í ¸¸³µÀ»
°Å¿¹¿ä. ³ª´Â °Å±â °¡¼ ¹öŬ¸®¿Í ºñ²¿ »çÀÌ¿¡
¹ú¾îÁ³´ø ÀÏÀ» ¾Ë¾Æº¸°í ½Í¾ú¾î¿ä. ºÒÇàÈ÷µµ ±×
ÀÏÀ» ÇÒ µ·À» ¾òÁö ¸øÇßÁö¿ä.
I
have since then corresponded with a number of
people who might have known about such a meeting
and they say they don't believe that there is
any record of it anywhere. I find this unbelievable.
Vico published his "de Antiquissima"
in 1710, Berkeley published his first main work
in 1710, and about five years later he spent
at least three months in Naples. He talked to
Doria and to other people who were well acquainted
with Vico. It's not conceivable that they did
not meet and talked to each other. There are
so many parallelisms in their ideas. They're
not the same, but there are parallel...
±×¶§
ÀÌÈÄ·Î ±×·¯ÇÑ ¸¸³²¿¡ ´ëÇØ ¾Ë°í ÀÖÀ» ¼ö ÀÖ´Â
¼ö¸¹Àº »ç¶÷µé°ú ¼½ÅÀ» ±³È¯Çß°í ±×µéÀº ±× ¾îµð¿¡µµ
±×·¯ÇÑ ±â·ÏÀÌ ÀÖÀ¸¸®¶ó°í´Â ¹ÏÀ» ¼ö ¾ø´Ù°í ¸»Çß½À´Ï´Ù.
ÀÌ´Â ¹ÏÀ» ¼ö ¾ø´Â ¹Ù¶ó ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷·È½À´Ï´Ù. ºñ²¿´Â
1710³â¿¡ ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ "de Antiquissima"¸¦
Ãâ°£Çߴµ¥, ¹öŬ¸®´Â 1710³â ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ ÃÖÃÊ ÁÖ¿ä
ÀúÀÛÀ» Ãâ°£ÇÏ°í 5³â ÈÄ ³ªÆú¸®¿¡¼ ÃÖ¼Ò 3°³¿ùÀ»
º¸³Â½À´Ï´Ù. ±×´Â ºñ²¿¸¦ Àß ¾Ë°í ÀÖ¾ú´ø µµ¸®¾Æ¿Í
±×¹Û¿¡ »ç¶÷µé°ú À̾߱⸦ ³ª´©¾ú½À´Ï´Ù. ±×µéÀÌ
¼·Î ¸¸³ª À̾߱⸦ ³ª´©Áö ¾Ê¾Ò´Ù´Â °ÍÀº »ó»óÇÒ
¼ö ¾ø´Â ÀÏÀÌÁÒ. ±×µé ¾ÆÀ̵ð¾îµé¿¡´Â °°Àº ¹æÇâÀ»
ÃëÇÏ´Â °ÍµéÀÌ ³Ê¹«µµ ¸¹°Åµç¿ä. ±× ¾ÆÀ̵ð¾îµéÀº
°°Áö ¾ÊÁö¸¸, °°Àº ¹æÇâÀ¸·Î °¡¸®Å°°í Àְŵç¿ä.
AP:
I think it would be a very intriguing connection
to be investigated, absolutely important.
AP:
°Å±â¿¡´Â ¿¬±¸µÉ, Àý´ëÀûÀ¸·Î Áß¿äÇÑ, ¾ÆÁÖ Èï¹ÌÁøÁøÇÑ
¿¬°áÀÌ ÀÖ´Ù°í »ý°¢ÇÕ´Ï´Ù.
And
how would you consider the evolution of constructivism,
its history from Vico...you quoted some authors,
you quoted Vico, you quoted Berkeley, you quoted
different authors until Piaget, no?
±³¼ö´Ô²²¼´Â
±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ ÁøÈ, ºñ²¿·ÎºÎÅÍ À̾îÁö´Â ±× ¿ª»ç¿¡
´ëÇØ ¾î¶»°Ô »ý°¢ÇϽʴϱî? ¸î¸î ÀúÀÚµéÀ» ÀοëÇß°í,
ºñ²¿¸¦ ÀοëÇß°í, ¹öŬ¸®¸¦ ÀοëÇß°í, »ß¾ÆÁ¦±îÁö
´Ù¸¥ ¿©·¯ ÀúÀÚµéÀ» ÀοëÇß½À´Ï´Ù. ±×·¸Áö ¾Ê½À´Ï±î?
EvG:
Yes, well, there are others that you could mention,
but before Piaget there is none who used the
word "construction" or "constructivism"
as a philosophical term.
EvG:
¸Â½À´Ï´Ù. À½¡¦ ´ç½ÅÀÌ °Å·ÐÇÒ ¼ö ÀÖ¾ú´ø ±×¹Û¿¡
ÀúÀڵ鵵 ÀÖÁö¿ä. ±×·¯³ª »ß¾ÆÁ¦ ÀÌÀü¿¡ ´Ü¾î '±¸¼º'
¶Ç´Â '±¸¼º·Ð'À» öÇÐÀû ¿ë¾î·Î ½è´ø ÀÌ´Â ¾Æ¹«µµ
¾ø½À´Ï´Ù.
And
before Piaget there isn't anyone who put the
idea of the individual construction of knowledge
together with Darwin's idea of adaptation. That
is what Piaget has done and in doing it he created
a relationship between knowledge and reality
that had never been heard of. I think that it
probably is the most important aspect of constructivism.
It has to be repeated, and repeated, and repeated
because people will not take it in easily.
±×¸®°í
»ß¾ÆÁ¦ ÀÌÀü¿¡´Â ±× ¾î¶² À̵µ °³Ã¼ÀÇ Áö½Ä ±¸¼º¿¡
´ëÇÑ °ü³äÀ» ´ÙÀ©ÀÇ ÀûÀÀ °ü³ä°ú ÇÔ²² °í·ÁÇÏÁö´Â
¸øÇßÁÒ. ±×°ÍÀÌ ¹Ù·Î »ß¾ÆÁ¦°¡ Çß´ø ÀÏÀÌ°í ±×
ÀÏÀ» ÇÔÀ¸·Î½á ±×´Â °áÄÚ µé¾îº» ÀûÀÌ ¾ø´ø Áö½Ä°ú
½ÇÀç/Çö½Ç »çÀÌ °ü·Ã¼ºÀ» âÁ¶Çß½À´Ï´Ù. ¾Æ¸¶µµ
±×°ÍÀÌ ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ °¡Àå Áß¿äÇÑ Ãø¸éÀÏ °ÍÀ̶ó »ý°¢ÇÕ´Ï´Ù.
»ç¶÷µéÀÌ ±×°ÍÀ» ½±°Ô ¹Þ¾ÆµéÀÏ °ÍÀ̱⠶§¹®¿¡
³ª´Â ¹Ýº¹ÇÏ°í ¹Ýº¹ÇÏ°í ¹Ýº¹ÇÒ ¼ö¹Û¿¡ ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù.
The
relation between knowledge and reality is no
longer a representational relation, it's not
the picture of reality. but it's a relation
of fitting into the possibilities of reality.
This means that you don't know what reality
is like, but you begin to learn what you can
do in that reality and that's the most important
aspect of constructivism.
Áö½Ä°ú
½ÇÀç/Çö½Ç »çÀÌ °ü°è´Â ´õ ÀÌ»ó ÀçÇöÀ¸·Î ¸Î¾îÁö´Â
°ü°èÀÏ ¼ö ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ±×°ÍÀº ½ÇÀç¿¡ ´ëÇÑ ±×¸²/»óÀÌ
¾Æ´ÏÁÒ. ±×·¯³ª ±×°ÍÀº ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀÇ ÀÖÀ» ¼ö ÀÖ´Â
°Íµé¿¡ ¸Â¾Æµé¾î°¡´Â °ü°èÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÀÌ´Â, ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀ̶õ
±× ¹«¾ù°ú °°Àº °ÍÀÓÀ» ´ç½ÅÀÌ ¾Ë ¼ö´Â ¾øÁö¸¸
´ç½ÅÀº ±× ½ÇÀç/Çö½Ç¿¡¼ ´ç½ÅÀÌ ÇÒ ¼ö ÀÖ´Â °ÍÀ»
¹è¿ì±â ½ÃÀÛÇÏ°í ÀÖÀ½À» ¶æÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ÀÌ°ÍÀÌ ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ
°¡Àå Áß¿äÇÑ Ãø¸éÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
AP:
Yes but it is quite scary for people who normally
use common sense.
AP:
±×·¸Áö¸¸, ±×°ÍÀº »ó½ÄÀ» °üÇàÀûÀ¸·Î ¾²´Â »ç¶÷µéÇÑÅ×´Â
¹«½Ã¹«½ÃÇÑ ÀÏÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
EvG:
It's very difficult!
EvG:
Á¤¸» ¾î·Á¿î ÀÏÀÌÁÒ!
AP:
Yes, difficult to understand, but also at the
same time I think scary for them because maybe
the way they act is constructivist, but the
way they describe what they do is more "realistic"
or they think they are realistic, at least.
People always say "reality is" when
they should say "my point of view is".
AP:
±×·¸½À´Ï´Ù. »ó½ÄÀ» °üÇàÀûÀ¸·Î ¾²´Â À̵éÇÑÅ×´Â
ÀÌÇØÇϱ⵵ ¾î·ÆÁö¸¸, ¶ÇÇÑ µ¿½Ã¿¡, ±×µéÀÌ ÇàÇÏ´Â
¹æ½ÄÀº ¾îÂî º¸¸é ±¸¼º·ÐÀûÀÏ ¼öµµ ÀÖÁö¸¸ ±×µéÀÌ
ÇÏ´Â ÀÏÀ» ±â¼úÇÏ´Â ¹æ½ÄÀº º¸´Ù '½ÇÀçÇÏ´Â °Íµé¿¡
¹ÙÅÁÀ» µÎ°í' Àֱ⿡, ¶Ç´Â ±×µé ÀڽŵéÀº, ¾îÂîµÆµç
ÃÖ¼ÒÇÑ, ½ÇÀç·ÐÀÚ¶ó »ý°¢Çϱ⿡, ±¸¼º·ÐÀº ±×µéÇÑÅ×´Â
¹«½Ã¹«½ÃÇÑ °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. »ç¶÷µéÀº "³» °üÁ¡ÀÌ
ÀÖ¾î" ÇÏ°í ¸»ÇØ¾ß ÇÒ ¶§ ±×µéÀº Ç×»ó '½ÇÀç/Çö½Ç´Â
ÀÖ´Ù'°í ¸»ÇÏÁÒ.
EvG:
Certainly.
EvG:
Á¤¸» ¸Â´Â ¸»ÀÌ¿¹¿ä.
AP:
So they have their own categories, they have
their own brain frames, but at the same time
they would never say: "these are my brain
frames", they would say: "this is
reality".
AP:
±×µéÀÌ ÀڽŵéÀÇ ¹üÁÖµéÀ» °¡Áö°í ÀÖµíÀÌ, ±×µéÀº
ÀڽŵéÀÇ µÎ³ú ÇÁ·¹ÀÓµéÀ» °®°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×·¸Áö¸¸,
±×µéÀº "ÀÌ°ÍÀº ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀÔ´Ï´Ù" ÇÏ°í
¸»ÇÏ´Â µ¿½Ã¿¡ "À̰͵éÀº ³» µÎ³ú ÇÁ·¹ÀÓµéÀÔ´Ï´Ù"¶ó°í´Â
°áÄÚ ¸»ÇÏÁö ¸øÇÕ´Ï´Ù.
And
what about common sense? The difference, the
gaps between common sense and the constructivist
approach to knowledge. This is the other part
of the initial question: how would you consider
constructivism to understand how media and common
sense interact, if they interact?
±×·¯¸é,
»ó½Ä°ú °ü·ÃÇؼ¡¦ Áö½Ä¿¡ ´ëÇÑ ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ Á¢±Ù°ú
»ó½Ä »çÀÌ Â÷ÀÌ, °ÝÂ÷µéÀº ¾î¶»½À´Ï±î? ÀÌ´Â ÃÖÃÊ
Áú¹®ÀÇ ¶Ç ´Ù¸¥ ºÎºÐÀÔ´Ï´Ù: ¸Åüµé°ú »ó½ÄÀÌ,
»óÈ£ÀÛ¿ëÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Ù¸é, »óÈ£ÀÛ¿ëÇÏ´Â ¹æ½ÄÀ» ÀÌÇØÇϱâ
À§ÇØ ±³¼ö´ÔÀº ±¸¼º·ÐÀ» ¾î¶² ½ÄÀ¸·Î ÂüÀÛÇϽʴϱî?
EvG:
Well, when you say interact, I think of what
happens with media and with the people who use
media and are influenced by media. It doesn't
break the constructivist rules, it follows pathways
that are perfectly compatible with constructivism.
EvG:
À½¡¦ ´ç½ÅÀÌ »óÈ£ÀÛ¿ëÀ» ¸»ÇÒ ¶§ µå´Â »ý°¢Àº,
¸Åüµé¿¡ ±×¸®°í ¸ÅüµéÀ» ¾²´Â »ç¶÷µéÇÑÅ× ¹ú¾îÁö´Â
±×¸®°í ¸ÅüµéÀÇ ¿µÇâÀ» ¹Þ´Â »ç¶÷µéÇÑÅ× ¹ú¾îÁö´Â
ÀϵéÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×°ÍµéÀº ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ ±ÔÄ¢µéÀ» Æı«ÇÏÁö
¾Ê½À´Ï´Ù. ±×°ÍµéÀº ±¸¼º·Ð°ú ¿Ïº®È÷ ¾ç¸³°¡´ÉÇÑ
°æ·ÎµéÀ» µû¸¨´Ï´Ù.
The
question is at what point does epistemology
become important, because it's on the level
of epistemology that constructivism makes the
difference. I have often said that a carpenter
or even an engineer doesn't have to bother about
epistemology, they learn their technology, they
learn their techniques and they're all constructive,
they don't have to worry about reality in any
philosophical sense, the main thing is that
what they do stands up, that it functions, that
it fits into the world in which it is built.
There's no difficulty there. It's in areas like
psychology or education, where the question
arises what the relation should be between our
knowledge and the world in which we're living.
There epistemology becomes important and then
constructivism makes the difference.
ÀνķÐÀÌ
¾î¶² ÁöÁ¡¿¡¼ Áß¿äÇÑ °ÍÀÌ µÇ´Â°¡ ÇÏ´Â Àǹ®Àº,
±¸¼º·ÐÀ¸·Î Â÷ÀÌ°¡ ¸¸µé¾îÁø ÀνķР¼öÁØ¿¡¼ ÀûÀýÇÑ
Áú¹®ÀÌ µË´Ï´Ù. ³»°¡ ÀÚÁÖ ÇÏ´Â ¸»·Î, ¸ñ¼ö ȤÀº
¿£Áö´Ï¾îÁ¶Â÷µµ ÀνķÐÀ¸·Î °ñ¸Ó¸®¸¦ ½âÈú ÇÊ¿ä´Â
¾øÁö¿ä, ±×µéÀº ÀڽŵéÀÇ Å×Å©³î·ÎÁö¸¦ ¹è¿ì¸é
µË´Ï´Ù; ±×µéÀÌ ¹è¿ì´Â ±â¼úµéÀº ¸ðµÎ ±¸¼º·ÐÀûÀÌÁö¿ä;
ÇÏÁö¸¸, ±×µéÀÌ Ã¶ÇÐÀû Àǹ̸¦ Áö´Ñ ½ÇÀç ¶§¹®¿¡
±«·Î¿öÇÒ ÀÌÀ¯´Â ÀüÇô ¾øÁö¿ä; °¡Àå Áß¿äÇÑ °ÍÀº,
±×µéÀÌ ÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Â ÀϵéÀº À¯È¿ÇÏ´Ù´Â <Áï, ³»±¸·ÂÀ»
°®°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â> °Í, ±×°ÍµéÀº ±â´ÉÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â
°Í, ±×°ÍµéÀº ±×°ÍµéÀÌ ±¸¼ºµÇ¾î È®¸³µÈ ¼¼»ó¿¡
¸Â¾Æµé¾î°¡°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â °ÍÀÌÁÒ. °Å±â¿¡´Â ¾î¶² °ï¶õµµ
ÀÖÀ» ¼ö ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ±× ÀûÀýÇÑ Áú¹®À¸·Î, ¿ì¸® Áö½Ä°ú
¿ì¸® »ç´Â ¼¼»ó »çÀÌ´Â ¾î¶² °ü°èÀÏ °ÍÀΰ¡ ÇÏ´Â
Àǹ®ÀÌ ÀϾ´Â ÁöÁ¡Àº, ½É¸®ÇÐ ¶Ç´Â ±³À°°ú °°Àº
ºÐ¾ßµéÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±× °÷µé¿¡¼ ÀνķÐÀº Áß¿äÇØÁö¸ç
±×·¸±â¿¡ ±¸¼º·ÐÀº Â÷À̸¦ ¸¸µé°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
AP:
On the epistemological level I think that constructivism
would be crucial for media and communication
studies and I would like to know if you agree
or not. Because of course people who work in
the media may be an anchorman or movie directors
and can easily ignore epistemology because...
AP:
ÀνķР¼öÁØ¿¡¼, ³» »ý°¢À¸·Î, ±¸¼º·ÐÀº ¸Åüµé°ú
Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀÌ¼Ç ¿¬±¸µé¿¡¼ °áÁ¤ÀûÀ¸·Î Áß¿äÇÕ´Ï´Ù.
ÀÌ¿¡ µ¿ÀÇÇϽô Áö ¾Æ´Ñ Áö ¾Ë°í ½Í½À´Ï´Ù. ¹°·Ð,
¸Åüµé¿¡ Á¾»çÇÏ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ¾ÞÄ¿µé ¶Ç´Â ¿µÈ°¨µ¶µéÀÏ
¼öµµ Àֱ⿡, ±×¸®°í ±×µéÀº ÀνķÐÀ» ½±°Ô ¹«½ÃÇϱ⿡¡¦
EvG:
Not only that. You see, I think, my difficulty
with talking about media is this: does it involve
only the technical part of spreading signals,
if you will, or does it include the people who
have a purpose in spreading the signals?
EvG:
±×°Í¸¸Àº ¾Æ´ÏÁÒ. ¾Æ½Ã´Ù½ÃÇÇ, ¸Åüµé¿¡ °üÇØ À̾߱â
ÇÒ ¶§ ³»°¡ ´À³¢´Â °ï¶õÀÌ ÀÖ¾î¿ä: ¿øÇÒ °æ¿ì,
°Å±â¿¡ ½Ã±×³Î »ìÆ÷Çϱâ¶ó´Â ±â¼úÀû ºÎºÐ¸¸À» Æ÷ÇÔ½Ãų
°ÍÀΰ¡, ¾Æ´Ï¸é ½Ã±×³Î(½ÅÈ£) »ìÆ÷ ¸ñÀûÀ» Áö´Ñ
»ç¶÷µé±îÁö Æ÷ÇÔÇÒ °ÍÀΰ¡?
AP:
In the way I'm using media, I mean the second.
AP:
Á¦°¡ ¸ÅüµéÀ» ¾²´Â ¹æ½Ä¿¡¼´Â µÎ ¹ø° ¶æÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
EvG:
Exactly, so the anchorman is someone who has
a view of the world and who wants to propagate
that view of the world, but he must never talk
about constructivism and epistemology.
EvG:
±×·¸Áö¿ä. ±×·¸°Ô ¾ÞÄ¿¶õ ¼¼°è°üÀ» °¡Áø, ±× ¼¼°è°üÀ»
¼±ÀüÇÏ±æ ¿øÇÏ´Â »ç¶÷ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×·¸Áö¸¸ ±×°¡ ±¸¼º·Ð°ú
Àνķп¡ °üÇÑ À̾߱⸦ ÇÒ ÇÊ¿ä´Â ÀüÇô ¾øÁö¿ä.
AP:
Sure.
AP:
¹°·ÐÀÌÁö¿ä.
EvG:
Because with that he would lose ground. So he
has to pretend that he knows what the world
is like and he's going to tell you, and you'd
better believe it.
EvG:
±× À̾߱æ ÇÏ¸é ¹Ð¸®°Ú±â¿¡ <¸»ÀÎÁï, ±Ù°Å¸¦
ÀÒ¾î¹ö¸®°Ú±â¿¡> ±×·¸ÁÒ. ±×·¡¼ ±×´Â ¼¼»óÀ̶õ
¹¹ ºñ½ÁÇÑ °ÍÀÓÀ» ¾Ë°í Àִ ôÇØ¾ß ÇÏÁö¿ä. ±×¸®°í
´ç½ÅÇÑÅ× ¸»ÇÏ°ÚÁÒ: '±×°É ¹Ï´Â °ÍÀÌ ´õ ÁÁÁö ¾Ê°Ú¾î¿ä'
AP:
Exactly, and for example the use of surveys,
the use of polls in politics, no? So these are
all techniques very important in the media to
describe the reality.
AP:
¹Ù·Î ±×°Ì´Ï´Ù. ¿¹¸¦ µé¾î, ¿©·Ð Á¶»çµéÀÇ ¾²ÀÓ»õ°¡
±×·¸°í, Á¤Ä¡¿¡¼ ÅõÇ¥ÀÇ ¾²ÀÓ»õ°¡ ±×·¸Áö ¾Ê½À´Ï±î?
±×·¡¼ À̰͵éÀº ¸ðµÎ ¸Åüµé¿¡¼ ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀ»
±â¼úÇÏ´Â µ¥ ¾²´Â ¸Å¿ì Áß¿äÇÑ Å×Å©´ÐµéÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
EvG:
To fix a reality.
EvG:
½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀ» °íÂø½ÃÅ°±â À§Çؼ.
AP:
Exactly.
AP:
¸Â½À´Ï´Ù.
EvG:
And to keep it fixed.
EvG:
¾Æ¿ï·¯ °íÂøµÈ ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀ» À¯ÁöÇϱâ À§Çؼ.
AP:
According to a constructivist view: they sell
the idea that they describe reality.
AP:
±¸¼º·Ð °üÁ¡¿¡¼ º¸ÀÚ¸é, ±×µéÀº ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀ» ±â¼úÇÏ´Â
Âø»ó/±¸»óÀ» ÆÈ°í¸Ô°í ÀÖÁö¿ä.
EvG:
Yes.
EvG:±×·¸ÁÒ.
AP:
OK, so, in which way would constructivism be
a crucial resource to understand how media fix
reality?
AP:¿¹,
±×·¸´Ù¸é, ±¸¼º·ÐÀº ¸ÅüµéÀÌ ½ÇÀç/Çö½Ç¸¦ ¾î¶»°Ô
°íÂø½ÃÅ°´Â Áö¸¦ ÀÌÇØÇÏ´Â °áÁ¤Àû ¼ö´Ü/¹æÃ¥ÀÌ
µÉ ¼ö ÀÖÁö ¾Ê°Ú½À´Ï±î?
EvG:
Well, I don't think you can bring constructivism
into that part of it. You can ask how does the
anchorman construct the view that he wants to
propagate and that's a construction, of course.
But it does not get at the epistemological question
of constructivism because the anchorman essentially
doesn't care what reality is really like, he
cares about propagating his view of a particular
reality.
EvG:
±Û½ê¿ä. ³ ´ç½ÅÀÌ ±¸¼º·ÐÀ» ±×·¸°Ô °®´Ù ¾µ ¼ö
ÀÖÀ¸¸®¶ó°í »ý°¢ÇÏÁø ¾Ê½À´Ï´Ù. ´ç½ÅÀº ¾ÞÄ¿°¡
¼±ÀüÇÏ°í ½ÍÀº, ´ç¿¬ ±¸¼º¹°·Î¼, °ßÇظ¦ ¾î¶»°Ô
±¸¼ºÇß´ÂÁö¸¦ ¹°À» ¼ö´Â ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×·¯³ª ±×°ÍÀ¸·Î
±¸¼º·ÐÀÌ Á¦±âÇÏ´Â ÀνķÐÀû ¹°À½¿¡ À̸¦ ¼ö ¾ø´Â
±î´ßÀº, Á÷¾÷»ó ¾ÞÄ¿ º»¿¬ÀÇ °ü½ÉÀº ½ÇÀç°¡ Á¤¸»
¹«¾ù°ú °°Àº °ÍÀÎ Áö ÇÏ´Â Àǹ®ÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó, ±×ÀÇ
ƯÁ¤ ½ÇÀç/Çö½Ç¿¡ ´ëÇÑ °ßÇظ¦ ¼±ÀüÇÏ´Â °ÍÀ̱â
¶§¹®ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
AP:
But...well...as a general question how much
is he aware that he's propagating his view?
Or if he believes he's describing reality?
AP:±×·¯³ª¡¦
À½¡¦ ÀϹÝÀû ¹®Á¦Á¦±â·Î¼, ±×°¡ ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ °ßÇظ¦
¼±ÀüÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â °É ¾î´À Á¤µµ ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸± ¼ö ÀÖÁö
¾ÊÀ»±î¿ä? ¶Ç´Â, ÀÚ½ÅÀÌ ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀ» ±â¼úÇÏ°í
ÀÖ´Ù´Â °ÍÀ» ±×°¡ ¹Ï°í ÀÖ´Â Áö ¾Æ´Ñ Áö¸¦¡¦
EvG:
I don't know. I have the feeling that they all
believe that they are really describing reality,
they've been honest you know, they're telling
it how it is. And that's a disaster. That's
why I tried to stay out of the media as much
as I could.
EvG:
³ ¸ð¸¨´Ï´Ù. ±×µé ¸ðµÎ ÀڽŵéÀÌ Á¤¸» ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀ»
±â¼úÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â ¹ÏÀ½À» °®°í ÀÖÀ¸¸®¶ó´Â »ý°¢Àº
µì´Ï´Ù. ´ç½Åµµ ¾Ë µíÀÌ ±×µéÀº ÀÌÁ¦²¯ Á¤Á÷Çß½À´Ï´Ù.
±×µéÀº ±× ¹æ½Ä ±×´ë·Î ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀ» ¸»ÇÏ°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
±×¸®°í ±×°ÍÀÌ ¹Ù·Î ´Ù¸§¾Æ´Ñ ¾öû³ Àç³ÀÌÁö¿ä.
ÀÌ°ÍÀÌ ¹Ù·Î ³»°¡ µÉ ¼ö ÀÖ´Â ÇÑ ¸ÅüµéÀ» ¸Ö¸®ÇÏ´Â
ÀÌÀ¯ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
AP:
I see, so you suggest to me also to stay as
out of the media as...
AP:¾Ë°Ú½À´Ï´Ù.
±×·³, ÀúÇÑÅ×µµ °¡´ÉÇÑ ¸Åüµé¿¡¼ ¹þ¾î³ª ÀÖÀ¸¶ó°í
Á¦¾ÈÇϽô °ÇÀÎ Áö¡¦
EvG:
No, I think you probably have a possibility
of making it a little better, of sowing a little
doubt here and there.
EvG:
±×°Ç ¾Æ´Õ´Ï´Ù. ³» »ý°¢Çϱ⿡, ´ç½ÅÀº Çʽà ±×°ÍÀ»
Á» ´õ ³ªÀº ¹æÇâÀ¸·Î À̲ø ¼ö ÀÖÀ» °Ì´Ï´Ù. ¿©±â
Àú±â Á¶±×¸¸ ÀÇȤÀÇ ¾¾¾ÑµéÀ» »Ñ¸®¸é¼¡¦
AP:
I see, and in terms of key authors of constructivism...people
of my generation, you know I am in my thirties,
studied your works, professor von Foerster's
works, and professor Watzlawick's and so on.
But in terms of constructivism applied to communication
and media the most popular and most considered
author was Niklas Luhmann: what do you think
about his works and his constructivism?
AP:
¾ËÁö¿ä, ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ ÁÖ¿ä ÀúÀÚµéÀÇ °ßÁö¿¡¼ º¼ ¶§¡¦
Á¦°¡ »ï½Ê´ëÀÎÁö ¾Æ½Ã´Â ¹Ù, Á¦ ¼¼´ë »ç¶÷µéÀº
±³¼ö´ÔÀÇ ÀúÀÛµé, Æù Ç£¸£½ºÅÍ ±³¼ö´ÔÀÇ ÀúÀÛµé,
±×¸®°í ¹ÙÃ÷·¯ºò ±³¼ö´ÔÀÇ ÀúÀÛµé, ±×¸®°í ±×¹Û¿¡
°ÍµéÀ» °øºÎÇß½À´Ï´Ù. ±×·¯³ª Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼ǰú ¸Åüµé¿¡
Àû¿ëµÈ ±¸¼º·Ð°ú °ü·ÃÇؼ °¡Àå ÀαâÀÖ°í °¡Àå
Á߽õǴ ÀúÀÚ´Â ´ÏŬ¶ó½º ·ç¸¸À̾ú¾î¿ä: ±×ÀÇ
ÀúÀÛ°ú ±×ÀÇ ±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ °üÇØ ¾î¶»°Ô »ý°¢ÇϽʴϱî?
EvG:
Well. I have great difficulties with Luhmann,
I haven't studied him from the beginning, I
have read a few things of Luhmann and I have
difficulties understanding specifically what
he means by communication. His communication
becomes such a basic term in his philosophy
that I'm not sure what he means by it. You see
to me, as a radical constructivist, communication
is, in a way, a misleading term, because it
always suggests to people that when you're communicating
something that something is in my head and I
put it into some formal code and then you unravel
the code and have that same thing in your head
that I have.
EvG:
±Û½ê¿ä. ³ªÇÑÅ× ·ç¸¸Àº ±²ÀåÈ÷ ¾î·Á¿ü¾î¿ä.
óÀ½ºÎÅÍ ±×¸¦ ¿¬±¸ÇÏÁö´Â ¾Ê¾Ò¾î¿ä. ·ç¸¸ÀÇ
¸î¸î ±ÛµéÀ» Àоú´Âµ¥, ±×°¡ Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼ÇÀ¸·Î
¶æÇÏ´Â ¹Ù¸¦ ¸íÈ®È÷ ÀÌÇØÇÏ´Â µ¥´Â ¾î·Á¿òµéÀÌ
ÀÖ¾ú¾î¿ä. ±×ÀÇ Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼ÇÀº ±×ÀÇ Ã¶Çп¡¼,
±×°¡ ±×°ÍÀ¸·Î ¶æÇÏ°íÀÚ ÇÏ´Â °ÍÀÌ ³ªÇÑÅ×´Â ºÐ¸íÄ¡
¾ÊÄ¡¸¸, ±×¿Í °°ÀÌ ±âº» ¿ë¾î°¡ µÇ¾ú½À´Ï´Ù. ´ç½ÅÀº
³ªÇÑÅ×¼, ±Ùº»Àû ±¸¼º·ÐÀÚÇÑÅ×, Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼ÇÀº,
¾î¶² ¸é¿¡¼´Â, ¿ÀÇظ¦ ¾ß±âÇÏ´Â ¿ë¾îÀÓÀ» µé¾î¾Ë°í
ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±× ¿ë¾î°¡ »ç¶÷µéÇÑÅ× Ç×»ó ¶°¿Ã¸®´Â
°ÍÀº ´ÙÀ½°ú °°½À´Ï´Ù: ´ç½ÅÀÌ ¹«¾ð°¡¿¡ ´ëÇØ Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼ÇÇÏ°í
<¸»ÀÎÁï, ¹«¾ð°¡¸¦ Àü´Þ¹Þ°í> ÀÖÀ» ¶§, ±×
¹«¾ùÀÌ ³» ¸Ó¸® ¼Ó¿¡ ÀÖ°í ³ª´Â ±×°ÍÀ» Çü½ÄÀ»
°®Ãá ¶Ç´Â °øÀû ÄÚµå·Î ¹ø¿ªÇÏ°í ±×¸®°í ÀÌ¾î ´ç½ÅÀº
±× Äڵ带 Çؼ®ÇÏ°í ³ª¸é, ´ç½ÅÀº ´ç½Å ¸Ó¸® ¼Ó¿¡
³»°¡ °®°í ÀÖ´Â °Í°í ¶È°°Àº °ÍÀ» °®°Ô µË´Ï´Ù.
I
think, this is a non viable view of communication.
ÀÌ·¯ÇÑ
°ßÇØ´Â Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼ǿ¡ ´ëÇÑ ÀüÇô »ìŬ ¼ö ¾ø´Â
°ßÇضó´Â °ÍÀÌ ³» »ý°¢ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
AP:
How would you consider communication or, what
kind of definition, or what kind of word would
you use instead to describe it in functional
terms?
AP:
±³¼ö´ÔÀº Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼ÇÀ» ¾î¶² ½ÄÀ¸·Î °íÂûÇϽʴϱî?
Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼ÇÀ» ±â´ÉÀû ¿ë¾îµé·Î ±â¼úÇÏ´Â ´ë½Å,
»ç¿ëÇÏ´Â Á¤Àdzª ´Ü¾î´Â ¾î¶² Á¾·ùÀÇ °ÍÀÎÁö¡¦
EvG:
Communication to me is the sending of signals.
They may be of any kind, they may be words of
a language or they may be signs on paper or
they may be noises or whatever. But the interpretation
of those signals is unfortunately not as simple
as in the case of technical codes. Let me explain.
If I give you a piece of paper on which it says
that one dot is an "e", three dots
are an "s", and so on for the whole
alphabet, you have the Morse code and you can
decode all telegrams transmitted in it. In the
case of language, this doesn't exist. You interpret
what I say according to your own experiences
and not according to my experiences. I can never
be sure what the meaning is that you read out
of my words, because what moves from me to you
are signals and not the meanings of signals.
This to me is the basic fact of communication.
As long as you use something like signals that
run in a channel, you have to have a code to
turn the signals into meaning. When we talk
about media that is not the case. Everybody
has to interpret what he reads or hears in the
media according to his or her experience.
EvG:
³ªÇÑÅ× Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼ÇÀº ½Ã±×³Îµé º¸³»±âÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
±× ½Ã±×³ÎµéÀº ¾î¶² Á¾·ùÀÇ °ÍÀÏ ¼ö ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
±×°ÍµéÀº ¾î¶² ¾ð¾îÀÇ ´Ü¾îµéÀÏ ¼öµµ ÀÖÀ¸¸ç ¶Ç´Â
Á¾ÀÌ À§ÀÇ Ç¥½ÃµéÀÏ ¼öµµ ÀÖÀ¸¸ç ¶Ç´Â ÀâÀ½µéÀÏ
¼öµµ ¶Ç´Â ±×¹Û¿¡ ¾î¶² °ÍÀÏ ¼öµµ ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×·¯³ª
±×·¯ÇÑ ½Ã±×³Îµé¿¡ ´ëÇÑ Çؼ®Àº ºÒÇàÈ÷µµ ±â¼úÀû
ÄÚµåµéÀÇ °æ¿ì¿¡¼Ã³·³ °£´ÜÄ¡ ¾Ê½À´Ï´Ù. ¼³¸íÀ»
ÇÏÁö¿ä. ³»°¡ ´ç½ÅÇÑÅ× Á¾ÀÌ Çϳª¸¦ ÁÝ´Ï´Ù. ±×·±µ¥,
±× À§¿¡´Â ¸ðµç ¾ËÆĺªÀ» ´ë½ÅÇؼ, À̸¦ Å׸é,
"e"¿¡´Â Á¡ Çϳª, "s"¿¡´Â
Á¡ 3°³·Î, µîµî°ú °°ÀÌ Á¡µéÀÌ ¾²¿© ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
´ç½ÅÀº ¸ð¸£½º Äڵ带 °®°í ÀÖ°í ±×·¸°Ô ¼Û½ÅµÈ
¸ðµç Àüº¸¸¦ Ç® ¼ö ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¾ð¾îÀÇ °æ¿ì¿¡´Â
ÀÌ¿Í °°Áö ¾Ê½À´Ï´Ù. ´ç½ÅÀº ³»°¡ ¸»ÇÑ °ÍµéÀ»
´ç½Å ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ °æÇè¿¡ µû¶ó Çؼ®ÇÏÁö ³» °æÇè¿¡ µû¶ó
Çؼ®ÇÏÁö´Â ¾Ê½À´Ï´Ù. ³ª´Â ´ç½ÅÀÌ ³» ¸»µé¿¡¼
Àо ±× Àǹ̰¡ ¹«¾ùÀÎÁö °áÄÚ È®½ÅÇÒ ¼ö ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù.
±× ÀÌÀ¯´Â ³ªÇÑÅ×¼ ´ç½ÅÇÑÅ×·Î Èê·¯°£ °ÍÀº ½Ã±×³ÎµéÀÌÁö
½Ã±×³ÎÀÇ Àǹ̵éÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï±â ¶§¹®ÀÌÁö¿ä. ³ªÇÑÅÙ
ÀÌ°ÍÀÌ Ä¿¹Â´ÏÄÉÀ̼ÇÀÇ ¹ÙÅÁÀ» Á¶¼ºÇÏ´Â »ç½ÇÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
´ç½ÅÀÌ Åë½Å·Î¿¡¼ µé°í³ª´Â ½Ã±×³Îµé °°Àº °ÍÀ»
¾²°í ÀÖ´Â ÇÑ, ´ç½ÅÀº ±× ½Ã±×³ÎµéÀ» Àǹ̷Π¹Ù²Ù´Â/Çؼ®ÇÏ´Â
ÇϳªÀÇ Äڵ带 °¡Áö°í ÀÖÀ» ¼ö¹Û¿¡ ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ¿ì¸®°¡
¸Åüµé¿¡ °üÇÑ À̾߱⸦ ³ª´ ¶§ ±×°ÍÀº ¹ú¾îÁ³´ø
½Ç»óÀº ¾Æ´Õ´Ï´Ù. ¸ðµç »ç¶÷µéÀº ±×µéÀÌ ¸Åü¿¡¼
Àаųª µé¾ú´ø °ÍÀ» °¢±â ±×µé ÀڽŵéÀÇ °æÇè¿¡
µû¶ó Çؼ®ÇÒ ¼ö¹Û¿¡ ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù.
AP:
I see; and, by way of experience, you told me
before that you worked in the media world as
a journalist...
AP:
¾Ë°Ú½À´Ï´Ù; ±×¸®°í ±³¼ö´ÔÀº Àü¿¡ Àú³Î¸®½ºÆ®·Î¼
¸Åü ¼¼°è/ºÐ¾ß¿¡¼ ÀÏÇß´ø °æÇèÀ» ÀúÇÑÅ× ¸»¾¸ÇϼÌÁö¿ä¡¦
EvG:
I was a journalist. After the war, I earned
my living as a journalist. I was a correspondent
of the well-known Swiss weekly "Die Weltwoche".
They had two correspondents in Italy, one did
the politics from Rome, and I covered everything
else.
EvG:
³ Àú³Î¸®½ºÆ®¿´½À´Ï´Ù. ÀüÀï ÈÄ, Àú³Î¸®½ºÆ®·Î
³» »ý°è¸¦ ²Ù·ÈÁö¿ä. ³ª´Â À¯¸íÇÑ ½ºÀ§½º ÁÖ°£Áö
"Die Weltwoche"ÀÇ Åë½Å¿øÀ̾ú½À´Ï´Ù.
±× ÀâÁö´Â ÀÌŸ®¿¡ µÎ ¸íÀÇ Åë½Å¿øÀ» µÎ°í ÀÖ¾ú´Âµ¥,
ÇѸíÀº ·Î¸¶¿¡¼ Á¤Ä¡¸¦ ´Ù·ç¾ú°í ³ª´Â ±×¹Û¿¡
¸ðµç °ÍÀ» ´Ù·ç¾úÁö¿ä.
AP:
And then this experience was integrated in the
evolution of your constructivist vision, it
was a step towards constructivism?
AP:
±×¸®°í ÀÌ¾î ±× °æÇèÀº ±³¼ö´ÔÀÇ ±¸¼º·ÐÀû Á¶¸ÁÀÇ
¹ß´Þ°ú ÅëÇյǾú°í, ±×°ÍÀÌ ±¸¼º·ÐÀ» ÇâÇÑ Ã¹ °ÉÀ½
¾Æ´Ï¾ú³ª¿ä?
EvG:
Well, it was integrated in the sense that it
taught me to write a little bit. It taught me
to write in a way that people could understand,
which was very helpful. I didn't do much constructivist
thinking or constructivist propaganda in those
days. Occasionally I did, when I wrote articles
about science, scientific events. Then I tried
to put in a constructivist view but...
EvG:
±Û½ê¿ä, ±Û¾²±â¸¦ Á» ¹è¿ü´Ù´Â ¶æ¿¡¼ ±×°ÍÀº ÀϺθ¦
ÀÌ·ç°í ÀÖÁö¿ä. °Å±â¼ ³ª´Â »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ÀÌÇØÇÒ ¼ö
ÀÖ´Â ¹æ½ÄÀ¸·Î ±ÛÀ» ¾²´Â °É ¹è¿ü¾î¿ä. ±×°ÍÀº
¸¹Àº µµ¿òÀÌ µÇ¾úÁÒ. ±× ½ÃÀý¿¡ ³ª´Â ±¸¼º·ÐÀûÀ¸·Î
»ý°¢Çϰųª ±¸¼º·ÐÀ» ¼±ÀüÇÏ´Â °ÍÀ» ¸¹ÀÌ ÇÏÁö
¸øÇß¾î¿ä. °úÇÐÀ̳ª, °úÇÐÀû »ç°Çµé¿¡ °üÇÑ ±â»çµéÀ»
¾µ ¶§, À̵û±Ý¾¿, ÇßÁö¿ä. ±×¶§¸¶´Ù, ±¸¼º·ÐÀû
°ßÇظ¦ ³¢¿ö³ÖÀ¸·Á Çß¾î¿ä. ÇÏÁö¸¸¡¦
AP:
But...I mean, for example you considered the
role of reality when you worked as a journalist
or you were aware that you were constructing
your reality?
AP:ÇÏÁö¸¸¡¦
À̸¦Å׸é, Àú³Î¸®½ºÆ®·Î ÀÏÇÒ ¶§³ª ÀÚ½ÅÀÌ ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ
½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀ» ±¸¼ºÇÏ°í ÀÖÀ½À» ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸± ¶§ ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀÇ
¿ªÇÒÀ» ¼÷°íÇÏ½Ã°Ô µÇ¼Ì´Ù ±× ¸»¾¸À̽ÃÁÒ.
EvG:
I was aware of constructing a particular view
of reality and trying to express it as clearly
as possible.
EvG:½ÇÀç/Çö½Ç¿¡
´ëÇÑ Æ¯Á¤ °ßÇظ¦ ³»°¡ ±¸¼ºÇÏ°í ÀÖÀ½À» ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷·È°í
±×°ÍÀ» °¡´ÉÇÑ ºÐ¸íÈ÷ Ç¥ÇöÇÏ·Á ÇßÁö¿ä.
AP:
So you already were aware that you were offering
a certain point of view, a certain perspective,
and so you were aware...
AP:
±×·¸°Ô, ±³¼ö´ÔÀº ÀÚ½ÅÀÌ ¾î¶² °üÁ¡, ¾î¶² Á¶¸ÁÀ»
±ÇÇÏ°í ÀÖÀ½À» ÀÌ¹Ì ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷·ÈÁö¿ä, ±×·¸°Ô ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸®½Å
°Å¶ó°í¡¦
EvG:
Well...no, I was always aware that I was offering
my view of reality.
EvG:À½¡¦
¾Æ´ÏÁÒ. ³»°¡ ½ÇÀç/Çö½Ç¿¡ ´ëÇÑ ³» °ßÇظ¦ ±ÇÇÏ°í
ÀÖ´Ù´Â °É ³ª´Â Ç×»ó ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸®°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä.
AP:
Yes, this awareness is rooted in your childhood
as you told me because when you were a kid,
you grew up in several different languages.
And you say that's the reason you became aware
of constructivism...
AP:
¾Æ ¿¹!. ÀÌ·¯ÇÑ ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸²Àº ±³¼ö´ÔÀÌ ÀúÇÑÅ× ¸»¾¸Çß´ø
±³¼ö´ÔÀÇ ¾î¸° ½ÃÀý¿¡ »Ñ¸®¸¦ µÎ°í ÀÖÁö¿ä. ¾î¸±
¶§ ¿©·¯ ¾ð¾îµé·Î ¼ºÀåÇϼ̱⠶§¹®À̶ó´Â. ±×¸®°í
±×°ÍÀÌ ±¸¼º·ÐÀ» ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸®°Ô µÈ ÀÌÀ¯¶ó°í ¸»¾¸ÇϼÌÁÒ.
EvG:
That's where I first became aware of the fact
that certain things, are not the same, when
you talk about them in English, as they are
when you talk about them in German. There are
very noticeable differences. And it's the same
with Italian. As I was in school in the Alto
Adige, for some time I played with Italian children
and that is when I began to learn Italian. So
I realized that they were very different worlds
of words.
EvG:
±×°÷ÀÌ ¹Ù·Î, ±× ¾î¶² °Í/»ç°Çµéµµ, ±×°É ´ç½ÅÀÌ
¿µ¾î·Î ¸»Çϵç, µ¶ÀϾî·Î ¸»Çϵç, ¶È°°Áö ¾Ê´Ù´Â
»ç½ÇÀ» ÃÖÃÊ·Î ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸®°Ô µÈ ÁöÁ¡ÀÌ¿¹¿ä. ¾ÆÁÖ
µÎµå·¯Áø Â÷À̵éÀÌ ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ±×°ÍÀº ÀÌŸ®¾î¿¡¼µµ
¶È°°¾Æ¿ä. ¾ËÅä ¾ÆµðÁ¦¿¡¼ Çб³ ´Ù´Ò ¶§ ÀÌŸ®
¾ÆÀ̵é°ú ÇÑ µ¿¾È ³î¾Ò°í ±×¶§ ÀÌŸ®¾î¸¦ ¹è¿ì±â
½ÃÀÛÇßÁö¿ä. ±× ¾ð¾îµéÀ̶õ, ±×·¡¼, ´Ü¾îµé·Î
Á¶¼ºµÈ ÀüÇô ´Ù¸¥ ¼¼»óµéÀ̶ó´Â °É ±ú´Þ¾Ò¾î¿ä.
AP:
These worlds derive from different languages
so could you give me some examples of the deconstruction
of differences between languages?
AP:
ÀÌµé ¼¼»óµéÀº »óÀÌÇÑ ¾ð¾îµé¿¡¼ ¾ò¾îÁö±â¿¡,
±×·¸±â¿¡ ±³¼ö´ÔÀÌ ³ªÇÑÅ× ¾ð¾îµé »çÀÌ ÀÖ´Â Â÷À̵éÀ»
ÇØüÇؼ ¸î¸î »ç·Êµé·Î º¸¿©ÁÖ½Ç ¼ö ÀÖ´Â °Å°ÚÁö¿ä?
EvG:
Well, in my book I gave quite a number of examples
and it's always...it is not easy to pick them
out of memory. But there is one that I remember.
A friend of mine...this was long after school,
in fact it was after the war...a friend of mine,
who was a professor of classics and German literature,
had to translate a German poem into Italian.
The poem was a romantic ballad about something
in Greece and it talks about the gods and it
says the gods live on a high mountains where
"wisps of fog kiss their cheeks".
He spoke Italian very well, but he came to me,
because he had a problem: how could one translate
"fog" in that context? The Italian
words for fog make you think of a sore throat
and a cold in the nose and the notion of fog
kissing your cheek as something romantic is
simply inconceivable.
EvG:
À½¡¦ ³ª´Â ³» Ã¥¿¡´Ù ¾ÆÁÖ ¸¹Àº »ç·ÊµéÀÌ ½èÁö¿ä.
»ç·ÊµéÀ» ±â¾ï¿¡¼ ²ôÁý¾î³»´Â °ÍÀº Ç×»ó¡¦. ½±Áö´Â
¾Ê½À´Ï´Ù. ±×·¯³ª ³»°¡ ¾ï±â(åãÑÃ)ÇÏ´Â °ÍÀÌ Çϳª
ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ³» Ä£±¸ ÇÑ ¸íÀÌ¡¦ ¼ö¾÷ÀÌ ³¡³ Áö ÇÑÂü
µÇ¾ú´Âµ¥¡¦ ½ÇÀº ±×¶§´Â ÀüÀïÀÌ ³¡³µ¾úÀ» ¶§¿¹¿ä¡¦
±× Ä£±¸´Â °íÀü ¹®Çаú µ¶ÀÏ ¹®ÇÐ ±³¼ö¿´´Âµ¥¡¦
±× Ä£±¸´Â µ¶ÀÏ ½Ã¸¦ ÀÌŸ®¾î·Î ¹ø¿ªÇØ¾ß Çß¾î¿ä.
±× ½Ã´Â ±×¸®½º¿¡¼ ¾î¶² °Í/»ç°Ç°ú °ü·ÃµÈ ³¶¸¸ÀûÀÎ
¹ß¶óµå dzÀ̾ú°í ½Åµé¿¡ °üÇØ À̾߱â ÇÏ¸é¼ ½ÅµéÀº
"wisps of fog kiss their cheeks <»Ç¾á
±¸¸§ ÀÚ¶ôµéÀÌ ±×µé »´¿¡ Å°½ºÇÏ´Â>" ³ôÀº
»ê À§¿¡ »ì°í ÀÖ´Ù°í ÇÏ´Â °Å¿¹¿ä. ±× Ä£±¸´Â ÀÌŸ®¾î¸¦
¾ÆÁÖ ÀßÇßÁö¸¸, ¹®Á¦°¡ Çϳª ÀÖ¾î¼ ³ªÇÑÅ× ¿Ô¾î¿ä:
±× ¸Æ¶ô¿¡¼ "fog"¸¦ ¾î¶»°Ô ¹ø¿ªÇؾß
Çϴ°¡? ¾È°³¿¡ ´ëÇÑ ÀÌŸ®¾î ´Ü¾îµéÀº ¸ñ±¸¸ÛÀÇ
½ÎÇÑ ´À³¦°ú ÄÚ ¼ÓÀÇ Â÷°¡¿î ´À³¦ÀÌ µé°Ô ¸¸µé±â¿¡,
¾È°³°¡ ´ç½Å »´¿¡ ·Î¸ÇƽÇÑ ¾î¶² °Íó·³ Å°½º¸¦
ÇÑ´Ù´Â °Ç µµÀúÈ÷ »ó»óÁ¶Â÷ ÇÒ ¼ö ¾øÁö¿ä.
AP:
Sure, fog is something negative.
AP:
´ç¿¬ÇÕ´Ï´Ù, ¾È°³´Â ºÎÁ¤ÀûÀÎ ¾î¶² °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
EvG:
In the Italian world it is always something
negative
EvG:ÀÌŸ®¾î
¼¼°è¿¡¼ ±×°ÍÀº ¾ðÁ¦³ª ºÎÁ¤ÀûÀÎ °ÍÀÌÁÒ.
AP:
Sure, even something dangerous.
AP:
¸Â½À´Ï´Ù. À§ÇèÇϱâ±îÁö ÇÑ °ÍÀÌÁÒ.
EvG:
There are thousands of examples like it. Those,
if you like, are examples of connotation, because
Italians and Germans can still talk about fog
and mean the same thing on the autostrada. Yet
the connotation is very different. But there
are many other examples where the actual, the
logical contents of the words is not comparable.
And if you live in a world where you use both
or three languages every day, you become aware
of the differences. It would be difficult not
to become aware of them. And then you ask as
how does that work? Everybody goes on as they
were describing reality, but then, when you
speak other languages it is not the same reality
you are describing. That is how I began to become
interested in epistemology.
EvG:
±×¿Í ºñ½ÁÇÑ ¼ö õ °¡Áö »ç·ÊµéÀÌ ÀÖÁö¿ä. ±×°ÍµéÀÌ
¾ð¿ÜÀÇ ¶æÀ» °®´Â »ç·ÊµéÀÎ °ÍÀº, ÀÌŸ® »ç¶÷µé°ú
µ¶ÀÏ »ç¶÷µéÀÌ °í¼Óµµ·Î À§¿¡¼ ¾È°³¿¡ °üÇÑ À̾߱⸦
ÇÒ °æ¿ì´Â °°Àº ¶æÀÏ °ÍÀ̱⠶§¹®ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×·³¿¡µµ,
¾ð¿ÜÀÇ ¶æÀº ÀüÇô ´Ù¸£Áö¿ä. ±×·¯³ª ´Ü¾îµéÀÇ ½ÇÁ¦,
³í¸®Àû ³»¿ëµéÀÌ ºñ±³µÉ ¼ö ¾ø´Â »ç·Êµéµµ ±×¹Û¿¡
¸¹ÀÌ ÀÖÁö¿ä. ±×¸®°í ´ç½ÅÀÌ ¸ÅÀϸÅÀÏ µÑ ¶Ç´Â
¼¼°³ÀÌ ¾ð¾îµéÀ» ¾²°í ÀÖ´Â ¼¼°è¿¡¼ »ê´Ù¸é, ´ç½ÅÀº
±× Â÷À̵éÀ» ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸®°Ô µË´Ï´Ù. ±× Â÷À̵éÀ» ¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸®Áö
¸øÇÏ´Â °æ¿ì´Â °ÅÀÇ ¾øÀ» °Ì´Ï´Ù. ±×¸®°í À̾î
´ç½ÅÀº ¹¯½À´Ï´Ù: ±×°Ô ¾î¶² ½ÄÀ¸·Î ÀÛµ¿ÇÏ°í ÀÖÁö?
¸ðµç À̵éÀº ±×µéÀÌ ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀ» ±â¼ú/¹¦»çÇÏ°í
ÀÖ¾ú´ø ¹Ù ±×´ë·Î °è¼ÓÇÏÁö¸¸, °ðÀÌ¾î ´ç½ÅÀÌ ´Ù¸¥
¾ð¾î·Î ¸»ÇÏ´Â ±× ¶§ ±×°ÍÀº ´ç½ÅÀÌ ±â¼ú/¹¦»çÇÏ°í
ÀÖ´Â ±× ¶È°°Àº ½ÇÀç/Çö½ÇÀÌ ¾Æ´Õ´Ï´Ù. ±×°ÍÀÌ
³»°¡ Àνķп¡ °ü½ÉÀ» °®±â ½ÃÀÛÇÏ°Ô µÈ ¹æ½ÄÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
AP:
I think there's a big difference, for example,
between the expression "I like it"
in English and "mi piace" in Italian,
or "es gefallt mir" in German.
AP:
¿¹¸¦ µé¾î, ¿µ¾î·Î "I like it", ÀÌŸ®¾î·Î
"mi piace", ¶Ç´Â µ¶ÀϾî·Î "es
gefallt mir"¶ó´Â Ç¥Çö »çÀÌ¿¡´Â Å« Â÷ÀÌ°¡
ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. <Çѱ¹¾î·Î, "ÁÁ¾ÆÇÏÁö, ±×°Å"¿Í
"¸¾¿¡ µå³×, ±×°Å"¿Í Â÷ÀÌ·Î ¸»ÇÒ ¼ö
ÀÖ°Ú½À´Ï´Ù - »ìŬ¸®>
EvG:
Yes, you have an enormous difference when you
say: "mi piace". "Piacere"
is the activity of other thing, it's not yours;
in English you say "I like it", and
the activity that you describe is your own.
Think what difference it makes if you go along
the street and say "mi piace questa ragazza"
as compared to "I like that girl".
EvG:
±×·¸ÁÒ. "mi piace" ÇÏ°í ¸»ÇÏ¸é ¾öû³
Â÷ÀÌ°¡ ³³´Ï´Ù. "Piacere"´Â ´Ù¸¥ ¹«¾ùÀÇ
È°µ¿ÀÌÁö, ´ç½ÅÀÇ È°µ¿ÀÌ ¾Æ´ÏÁÒ; ¿µ¾î¿¡¼ "I
like it" ÇÏ°í ¸»ÇÏ¸é ´ç½ÅÀÌ ±â¼úÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Â
±× È°µ¿Àº ´ç½Å ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. °Å¸®¸¦ °ÉÀ¸¸é¼
"mi piace questa ragazza" ÇÏ°í ¸»ÇÏ´Â
°Í°ú "I like that girl" ÇÏ°í ¸»ÇÏ´Â
°æ¿ì ¾î¶² Â÷ÀÌ°¡ »ý±â´Â Áö »ý°¢Çغ¸¼¼¿ä. <Çѱ¹¾î·Î,
"Àú ¼Ò³à°¡ ¸¾¿¡ µå³×"¿Í "Àú ¼Ò³ã
ÁÁ¾ÆÇÑ´Ù³×"ÀÇ Â÷ÀÌ·Î ¸»ÇÒ ¼ö ÀÖ°Ú½À´Ï´Ù
- »ìŬ¸®>
AP:
Yes, it sounds different.
AP:¿¹,
´Þ¸® µé¸®´Â±º¿ä.
EvG:
It's a conceptual difference that hardly anyone
becomes aware of.
EvG:°£½ÅÈ÷
¾Ë¾ÆÂ÷¸®°Ô µÇ´Â °³³äÀû Â÷ÀÌÁö¿ä.
AP:
Yes, and I think that in German and in Italian
it works in the same way: "dieses Madchen
gefallt mir" and "mi piace questa
ragazza" are the same, while in English
you have: "I like this girl".
AP:±×·¯³×¿ä.
Àú´Â ±× °æ¿ì µ¶ÀϾî¿Í ÀÌŸ®¾î¿¡¼´Â °°Àº ¹æ½ÄÀ¸·Î
ÀÛµ¿ÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Ù°í »ý°¢ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ¿µ¾î·Î "I like
this girl" ÇÏ°í Ç¥ÇöÇÏ´Â µ¥ ¹ÝÇÏ¿©, ."dieses
Madchen gefallt mir"¿Í "mi piace questa
ragazza"´Â °°½À´Ï´Ù.
EvG:
Yes.
EvG:
¸Â½À´Ï´Ù.
AP:
It's intriguing.
AP:Àç¹Õ´Âµ¥¿ä.
My
next question is about the future of the constructivist
orientation: what kind of suggestions would
you give to those young scholars who would like
to follow the theoretical trend of constructivism,
nowadays.
Á¦
´ÙÀ½ Áú¹®Àº ±¸¼º·ÐÀÌ °¡¸®Å°´Â ¹æÇâÀÇ Àü¸Á¿¡
°ü·ÃµÈ °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù: ¿À´Ã³¯ ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ ÀÌ·ÐÀû Á¶·ù¸¦
µû¸£°í ½ÍÀº ±×·¯ÇÑ ÀþÀº ÇÐÀÚµéÇÑÅ× ÇÏ½Ã°í ½ÍÀº
¸»¾¸Àº?
EvG:
Well, I think they have to work it out for themselves.
You see, one of the main principles of the constructivism
is that you construct your knowledge yourself
and if that has a number of implications for
general knowledge and science as well. Heinz
von Forster has made this very clear. The moment
you begin to think that you are the author of
your knowledge, you have to consider that you
are responsible for it. You are responsible
for what you are thinking, because it's you
who's doing the thinking and you are responsible
for what you have put together because it's
you who's putting it all together. It's a disagreeable
idea and it has serious consequences, because
it makes you truly responsible for everything
you do. You can no longer say "well, that's
how the world is", or "sono cosi";
you know, that's not good enough.
EvG:±Û½ê¿ä.
³ª´Â ±×µéÀÌ ±×µé ÀÚ½ÅÀ» À§ÇØ ±× ÀÏÀ» ÇØ¾ß ÇÑ´Ù°í
»ý°¢ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ¾Ë´Ù½ÃÇÇ, ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ ÁÖ¿ä ¿ø¸®µé °¡¿îµ¥
Çϳª´Â ´ç½Å Áö½ÄÀº ´ç½ÅÀÌ ½º½º·Î ±¸¼ºÇÑ´Ù´Â
°ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù; ±×¸®°í ÀÏ¹Ý Áö½Ä, ±×¸®°í ¶ÇÇÑ °úÇаú
°ü·ÃÇؼµµ ¿¬·çµÈ °ÍµéÀÌ ¸¹À½¿¡µµ ±×·¸½À´Ï´Ù. ÇÏÀÎÁî
Æù Ç£¸£½ºÅÍ´Â À̸¦ ¾ÆÁÖ ¸íÈ®È÷ Çß¾î¿ä.
´ç½ÅÀÌ ÀÚ½ÅÀ» ´ç½Å Áö½ÄÀÇ ÀúÀÛÀÚ·Î »ý°¢ÇÏ´Â
¼ø°£, ´ç½ÅÀº ±×°Í¿¡ Ã¥ÀÓÀÌ ÀÖ´Ù°í ¿©±æ ¼ö¹Û¿¡
¾ø¾î¿ä. ´ç½ÅÀÌ ÀÚ½ÅÀÌ »ý°¢ÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Â °Í¿¡ Ã¥ÀÓÀÌ
ÀÖ´Â °ÍÀº, »ý°¢Çϱ⸦ ÇÏ´Â ÀÌ´Â ¹Ù·Î ´ç½ÅÀ̱â
¶§¹®ÀÌ°í, ´ç½ÅÀÌ Â¥¸¸µé¾ú´ø °Í¿¡ Ã¥ÀÓÀÌ ÀÖ´Â
°ÍÀº, ±×°ÍÀ» ¸ðµÎ Â¥¸¸µé¾ú´ø À̵µ ´ç½ÅÀ̱⠶§¹®ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
ÀÌ´Â µ¿ÀÇÇÏ°í ½ÍÁö ¾ÊÀº »ý°¢ÀÌÁö¸¸ ½É°¢ÇÑ ±Í°áÀ»
°®°í Àִµ¥, ÀÌ·± »ý°¢À¸·Î ´ç½ÅÀº ´ç½ÅÀÌ ÇÏ´Â
¸ðµç ÀÏ¿¡ ÁøÁ¤À¸·Î Ã¥ÀÓÁö°Ô µË´Ï´Ù. ´ç½ÅÀº ÀÌÁ¦
´õ ÀÌ»ó "À½¡¦ ¼¼»ó»ç ±×·± ½ÄÀÌÁö",
Ȥ "±×·¸Áö ¹¹"¶ó°í ¸»ÇÒ ¼ö ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù;
±×°ÍÀ¸·Î´Â ÃæºÐÄ¡ ¾ÊÀ½À» ´ç½ÅÀº ¾Ë°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
AP:
And in which way would students be responsible
for what they do?
AP:±×·¯¸é,
ÇлýµéÀº ±×µéÀÌ ÇÏ´Â ÀÏ¿¡ ´ëÇØ ¾î¶² ½ÄÀ¸·Î Ã¥ÀÓÁ®¾ß
ÇÒ±î¿ä?
EvG:
They are responsible because it's they who have
put together, that is constructed, their knowledge.
No one else could do it for them. You can suggest
formulations, but you cannot transmit concepts
or thoughts. Before lunch we talked about media.
I think that is the difference a constructivist
orientation could make apparent: the media can
teach you to say things, they can give you phrases,
combinations of words, but they cannot teach
you the understanding of what these words mean.
Very often people use words without ever having
bothered to understand what they might mean.
EvG:
±×µéÀº Ã¥ÀÓÁö°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ±¸¼ºµÇ°í ÀÖ´Â, ±×µé
Áö½ÄÀ» Â¥¸¸µå´Â °ÍÀº ±×µéÀÌ°í, Ã¥ÀÓÀ̶õ ¹Ù·Î
±×°ÍÀÌÁÒ. ¾î´À ´©±¸µµ ±×µéÀ» ´ë½ÅÇØ ±×°É ÇÒ
¼ø ¾øÁö¿ä. ´ç½ÅÀÌ °ø½ÄÀ̳ª ü°èÀû ³í¼ú, ¶Ç´Â
¸íÈ®ÇÑ Ç¥ÇöÀ» Á¦½ÃÇÒ ¼ö´Â ÀÖ°ÚÁö¸¸, °³³äÀ̳ª
»ý°¢µéÀ» ÀüÇØÁÙ ¼ö´Â ¾øÁö¿ä. Á¡½É Àü¿¡ ¸Åüµé¿¡
´ëÇؼ ÀÌ¾ß±æ ³ª´³Áö¿ä. ³ª´Â ±¸¼º·ÐÀû ¹æÇâÀÌ
¸í¹éÈ÷ ¸¸µé ¼ö ÀÖ´Â Â÷ÀÌ°¡ ¹Ù·Î ±× Á¡À̶ó »ý°¢ÇÕ´Ï´Ù:
¸ÅüµéÀÌ ´ç½ÅÇÑÅ× °¡¸£Ä¥ ¼ö ÀÖ´Â °ÍÀº ¸»ÇҰŸ®µéÀÌÁÒ.
¸ÅüµéÀº ´Ü¾îµéÀÇ Á¶ÇÕ, ¹®±¸µéÀ» ÁÙ ¼ö ÀÖÁö¸¸,
´ç½ÅÇÑÅ× ±× ´Ü¾îµéÀÌ ¶æÇÏ´Â °ÍÀ» ÀÌÇØÇÏ´Â °É
°¡¸£Ä¥ ¼ø ¾ø¾î¿ä. »ç¶÷µéÀº, ³Ê¹«µµ ÀÚÁÖ, ±×
´Ü¾îµéÀÌ ¹«½¼ ¶æÀÏ ¼ö ÀÖÀ» Áö ¸¾À» Á¹À̰ųª
¸¾À» ¾²Áö ¾ÊÀº ä ±×°ÍµéÀ» »ç¿ëÇÕ´Ï´Ù.
AP:
Sure, but the media also make people have opinions
about items people know nothing about.
AP:±×·¸½À´Ï´Ù.
ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¸ÅüµéÀº ¶ÇÇÑ »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ¾ËÁö ¸øÇß´ø °Í/»ç°Çµé¿¡
°üÇØ ÀÇ°ßÀ» °®µµ·Ï ÇÏÁö¿ä.
EvG:
Yes, it's very easy! You treat people like parrots.
You get them to repeat certain words, and the
words become stimuli for certain actions. When
they hear these words, they carry out the action.
Like automata, without understanding. The whole
of Behaviorism was based on that notion. And
it did some remarkable things.
EvG:
¸Â½À´Ï´Ù. ±×°Ç ¾ÆÁÖ ½±Áö¿ä! ´ç½ÅÀº »ç¶÷µéÀ»
¾Þ¹«»õµéó·³ Ãë±ÞÇÏ°í ÀÖ±º¿ä. ´ç½ÅÀº ±×µéÀÌ
¸î¸î ´Ü¾îµéÀ» ¹Ýº¹Çϵµ·Ï ÇÏÁö¿ä. ±×¸®°í ±× ´Ü¾îµéÀº
ÀÏÁ¤ÇÑ ÇàÀ§µé Ã˹ßÇÏ´Â Àڱصé·Î ±â´ÉÇÏÁö¿ä.
±×µéÀÌ ÀÌ·± ´Ü¾îµéÀ» µéÀ» ¶§ ±×µéÀº ±× ÇàÀ§¸¦
ÀÌÇàÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ÀÚµ¿±â°èó·³, ÀÌÇØ ¾øÀÌ. ¸ðµç ÇൿÁÖÀÇ´Â
±×·¯ÇÑ °ü³ä¿¡ ¹ÙÅÁÇÏ°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×¸®°í ±×°ÍÀº
¸î¸î ÁÖ¸ñÇÒ¸¸ÇÑ ¼º°ú¸¦ ¿Ã·ÈÁö¿ä.
AP:
So, do you think that media could be still partially
analyzed through a behaviorist approach?
AP:
±×·¡¼, ¸ÅüµéÀÌ ÇൿÁÖÀÇÀû Á¢±ÙÀ¸·Î ¾î´À Á¤µµ±îÁö´Â
¿©ÀüÈ÷ ºÐ¼®µÉ ¼ö ÀÖ´Ù´Â °ÍÀÌ ±³¼ö´Ô »ý°¢À̽ʴϱî?
EvG:
Well, I think much of what media attempt is
based on behaviorist principles.
EvG:
±Û½ê¿ä, ³» »ý°¢Àº ¸ÅüµéÀÌ ½ÃµµÇÑ °Íµé °¡¿îµ¥
¸¹Àº °ÍµéÀÌ ÇൿÁÖÀÇ ¿ø¸®µé¿¡ ¹ÙÅÁÀ» µÎ°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â
°ÅÁö¿ä.
AP:
Still nowadays?
AP:
¾ÆÁ÷±îÁöµµ ¿©ÀüÈ÷ ±×·¸´Ù´Â ¸»¾¸?
EvG:
Yes! Because the behaviorists were very successful
with rats and pigeons, but they were never successful
in making people understand. That's why they
never achieved real learning in schools.
EvG:
±×·¸½À´Ï´Ù! ÇൿÁÖÀÇÀÚµéÀÌ Áã¿Í ºñµÑ±â·Î Å«
¼º°øÀ» °ÅµÎ¾ú±â ¶§¹®ÀÌÁö¸¸, ±×µéÀÌ »ç¶÷µéÀ»
ÀÌÇØÇϵµ·Ï ¸¸µå´Â µ¥ ¼º°øÇÑ °ÍÀº °áÄÚ ¾Æ´Ï¾úÁö¿ä.
±×°ÍÀÌ ¹Ù·Î ±×µéÀÌ Çб³¿¡¼ ÁøÂ¥ ¹è¿ì±â¸¦ °áÄÚ
¼ºÃëÇÒ ¼ö ¾ø¾ú´ø ÀÌÀ¯ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
AP:
So you mean that Behaviorism didn't work so
well in schools but better in the media? And
so constructivism is the opposite?
AP:±×·¡¼
±× ¸»¾¸Àº ÇൿÁÖÀÇ´Â Çб³¿¡¼´Â Àß ÀÛµ¿ÇÏÁö
¸øÇßÁö¸¸ ¸Åü¿¡¼´Â ºñ±³Àû Àß ÀÛµ¿Çß´Ù´Â ¶æÀԴϱî?
±×¸®°í ±¸¼º·Ð ¶Ç´Â ÁÖÀÇ´Â ±× ¹Ý´ë¶õ ¸»¾¸À̽ÅÁö?
EvG:
I don't say that it works better...
EvG:±×°ÍÀÌ
¸Åüµé¿¡¼ ´õ Àß ÀÛµ¿ÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â ¸»Àº ¾Æ´Õ´Ï´Ù.
AP:
Oh sorry, I misunderstood...
AP:¾Æ,
Á˼ÛÇÕ´Ï´Ù. Á¦°¡ ¿ÀÇØÇß½À´Ï´Ù.
EvG:
I think the media use certain behaviorist principles...
EvG:¸ÅüµéÀÌ
¸î¸î ÇൿÁÖÀÇ ¿ø¸®µéÀ» ¾²°í ÀÖ´Ù°í »ý°¢ÇÕ´Ï´Ù.
AP:
...and they work!
AP:
¡¦±×¸®°í ±×°ÍµéÀº ÀÛµ¿ÇÏ°í ÀÖÁö¿ä!
EvG:
Ah, they do work, yes! I mean if you repeat
something often then someone else is going to
repeat it. It's as simply as that.
EvG:
¾Æ, ±×°ÍµéÀº ÀÛµ¿ÇÏ°í ÀÖÁö¿ä, ¸Â¾Æ¿ä! ³» ¸»Àº
´ç½ÅÀÌ ¾î¶² °É ÀÚÁÖ ¹Ýº¹ÇÒ °æ¿ì ¶Ç ´Ù¸¥ ÀÌ´Â
±×°É ¹Ýº¹ÇÏ·Á ÇÑ´Ù´Â °ÅÁö¿ä. ±×°Í¸¸Å °£´ÜÇÑ
°Ô ¾øÁö¿ä.
AP:
Yes.
AP:
±×·¸ÁÒ.
EvG:
People who hear five times every evening that,
for instance that, "x" is the best
dishwasher, sooner or later it will have an
effect on them. Whether they understand anything
about dishwashers or not is irrelevant; "x"
becomes a fixture for them.
EvG:
¸ÅÀÏ Àú³è, ¿¹¸¦ µé¾î, "X"´Â ÃÖ°íÀÇ
Á¢½Ã´ÛÀÌ´Ù¶õ ¼Ò¸®¸¦ ´Ù¼¸ ¹ø¾¿ µè´Â »ç¶÷µéÇÑÅ×´Â,
¾ó¸¶Áö³ªÁö ¾Ê¾Æ, ±×·Î ÀÎÇØ ÇÑ °¡Áö È¿°ú°¡ ³ªÅ¸³³´Ï´Ù.
±× »ç¶÷µéÀÌ Á¢½Ã´ÛÀ̵鿡 °üÇØ ¹º°¡¸¦ ÀÌÇØÇϵç
¾Æ´ÏÇÏµç ±×°ÍÀº ¹«°üÇÑ °ÅÁö¿ä; "X"´Â
±×µéÇÑÅ× °íÂøµÇ¾úÁÒ.
AP:
I see. Let's consider advertising. In Italy,
in these days there is a very popular advertisement
of a certain mobile phone, and this mobile phone
had a very popular jingle (music).
AP:¾Ë°Ú½À´Ï´Ù.
±¤°í¸¦ °íÂûÇغ¸Áö¿ä. ÀÌŸ®¿¡¼´Â, ¿äÁò ÇÚµåÆù
±¤°í°¡ ¾ÆÁÖ Àα⸮¿¡ ÇàÇØÁö°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ÀÌ ÇÚµåÆù¿¡¼´Â
¾ÆÁÖ Àαâ ÀÖ´Â º§¼Ò¸®(À½¾Ç)ÀÌ Èê·¯³ª¿ÀÁö¿ä.
EvG:
Oh yes.
EvG:¿À
±×·¡¿ä.
AP:
Many people in Italy started to sing and to
whistle this jingle which was repeated thousand
of times every day. Almost everybody, including
myself, maybe one day were singing or whistling
along the streets. The number of people singing
this jingle was extremely high, but the number
of people buying that phone was extremely limited.
So from this point of view how would you...
AP:
ÀÌŸ®¿¡¼´Â ¸¹Àº »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ¸ÅÀÏ ¼ö õ ¹ø¾¿ ¹Ýº¹µÇ´Â
ÀÌ º§¼Ò¸®¸¦ Èï¾ó°Å¸®°Å³ª ÈÖÆĶ÷À» ºÒ±â ½ÃÀÛÇßÁö¿ä.
Àú¸¦ Æ÷ÇÔÇؼ °ÅÀÇ ¸ðµç »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ¾Æ¸¶µµ ÇÏ·ç³»³»
°Å¸± °ÉÀ¸¸ç Èï¾ó°Å¸®°Å³ª ÈÖÆĶ÷À» ºÒ¸ç º¸³¾
°Ì´Ï´Ù. ÀÌ º§¼Ò¸®¸¦ Èï¾ó°Å¸®´Â »ç¶÷µé ¼ö´Â ¾ÆÁÖ
¸¹Áö¸¸, ±× ÇÚµåÆùÀ» »ç´Â »ç¶÷µé ¼ö´Â ±ØÈ÷ Á¦ÇѵǾî
ÀÖÁö¿ä. ±×·¡¼ ÀÌ·± °üÁ¡¿¡¼ ±³¼ö´Ô »ý°¢Àº¡¦
EvG:
You mean it didn't work as advertising gambit.
EvG:
´ç½Å ¸»Àº, ±×°ÍÀÌ ±¤°í°¡ ³ë¸° ¼±Á¡ È¿°ú°¡ ³ªÅ¸³ªÁö/ÀÛµ¿ÇÏÁö
¾Ê¾Ò´Ù´Â ¶æÀÌÁÒ.
AP:
No, in the field of advertising, this is the
problem, most advertisements are becoming a
sort of artistic product independently from
the product they promote and so people learn
for example how beautiful the model is, they
learn by memory the jingle and they don't buy
the specific product; from this point of view
it seems the stimulus was received but the reaction
was not the expected one.
AP:¾Æ´ÏÁÒ.
±¤°í ºÐ¾ß¿¡¼, ¹®Á¦´Â ÀÌ·¸½À´Ï´Ù; ´ë´Ù¼ö ±¤°íµéÀº
±×°Íµé·Î ÆǸŸ¦ ÃËÁø½ÃÅ°·Á´Â »óÇ°°ú´Â µ¶¸³µÈ
ÀÏÁ¾ÀÇ ¿¹¼úÀû »óÇ°ÀÌ µÇ°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â °ÅÁö¿ä; ±×·¸°Ô
»ç¶÷µéÀº, À̸¦ Å׸é, ±× ¸ðµ¨ÀÌ ¾ó¸¶³ª ¾Æ¸§´Ù¿î
°ÍÀÎÁö ¹è¿ì°í ±× º§¼Ò¸®¸¦ ±â¾ïÇؼ ¹è¿ìÁö¸¸
±× ƯÁ¤ »óÇ°À» »çÁö´Â ¾ÊÁö¿ä; ÀÌ·± °üÁ¡¿¡¼
º¸¸é, ÀÚ±ØÀº ¹Þ¾ÆµéÀÌÁö¸¸ ±× ¹ÝÀÀÀº ±â´ëµÇ¾ú´ø
°ÍÀÌ ¾Æ´Ñ °ÍÀ¸·Î »ý°¢µË´Ï´Ù.
EvG:
Well, I think that must happen quite often,
but on the other hand some of those things must
work with regard to the sales because otherwise
they wouldn't spend the amounts of money they
do spend on that. Don't you think?
EvG:
±Û½ê¿ä, ±×·± ÀÏÀº »ó´çÈ÷ ÀÚÁÖ ÀϾ ¼ö¹Û¿¡
¾øÁö¸¸, ´Ù¸¥ ÇÑÆí¿¡¼ º¸ÀÚ¸é, ¾î´À Á¤µµ´Â ÆǸſÍ
°ü·ÃÇؼ À¯È¿ÇÒ/ÀÛµ¿ÇÒ ¼ö¹Û¿¡ ¾ø´Ù°í »ý°¢ÇÕ´Ï´Ù.
¿Ö³ÄÇϸé, ±×·¸Áö ¾Ê´Ù¸é »ó´çÇÑ ÀÚ±ÝÀ» ±¤°í¿¡
¾²Áö ¾Ê°ÚÁÒ. ¾È±×·±°¡¿ä?
AP:
Yes, I think so, I agree with you, but at the
same time advertising is a very good example
of constructivism in practice, because people
who do advertising make what they call "target
analysis". It helps them to decide the
kind of people who are the target of these campaigns
and these people are observed according to the
categories of the observer, not according to
what they do. Sometimes, very often, advertising
campaigns fail and they waste amounts of work.
For example, people speaking among each other
create more effective channels for advertising
than advertising campaigns.
AP:
±×·¸ÁÒ. ±×·¸°Ô »ý°¢ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. µ¿ÀÇÇÏÁö¸¸, µ¿½Ã¿¡
±¤°í°¡ ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ ¾ÆÁÖ ÈǸ¢ÇÑ ½ÇÁ¦ »ç·ÊÀ̱⵵
ÇÑ °ÍÀº, ±¤°í¸¦ ÇàÇÏ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀº ±×µéÀÌ "Ç¥Àû
ºÐ¼®"À̶ó ºÎ¸£´Â °ÍÀ» ÇÏ°í Àֱ⠶§¹®ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
ÀÌ·¯ÇÑ ºÐ¼®Àº, ¾î¶² ºÎ·ùÀÇ »ç¶÷µéÀ» ÀÌ·¯ÇÑ Ä·ÆäÀεéÀÇ
Ç¥ÀûÀ¸·Î ÇÒ °ÍÀΰ¡ ÇÏ´Â ±¤°í ÇàÀ§ÀÚÀÇ °áÁ¤À»
µ½½À´Ï´Ù. Ç¥ÀûÀÌ µÇ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀº, ±×µéÀÌ ÇÏ°í
ÀÖ´Â ÀÏ¿¡ µû¶ó¼°¡ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó, °üÂûÀÚÀÇ ¹üÁֵ鿡
µû¶ó °üÂûµË´Ï´Ù. °¡²û, ¾ÆÁÖ ÀÚÁÖ, ±¤°í Ä·ÆäÀεéÀº
½ÇÆÐÇÏ¸ç ±×°ÍµéÀº »ó´çÇÑ ³ëµ¿·ÂÀ» ³¶ºñÇÏ°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
¿¹¸¦ µé¾î, ¼·Î¼·Î ¸»À» ÁÖ°í¹Þ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀº ±¤°í
ÄÍÆäÀκ¸´Ù´Â º¸´Ù È¿°úÀûÀÎ ±¤°í ä³Î/Åë·ÎµéÀ»
âÁ¶ÇÏ°í Àֱ⠶§¹®¿¡ ±×·¸½À´Ï´Ù.
EvG:
Yes
EvG:±×·¸Áö¿ä.
AP:
Would you like to add something?
AP:µ¡ºÙÀÌ°í
½ÍÀº ¸»¾¸ÀÌ ÀÖÀ¸½Ã¸é?
EvG:
No, I would not. I was going to say that I'm
not competent to say much about that area because
I haven't had an opportunity to get into it.
The person who I think has and who knows all
about constructivism is Siegfried J.Schmidt.
He published a number of things which deal exactly
with that question of advertising and the construction
of knowledge. You should look at those, they're
published in German.
EvG:
¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ±×·² °ÍÀÌ¡¦ ³»°¡ ±× ºÐ¾ß¿¡ ÁøÀÔÇÒ
±âȸ¸¦ °®Áö ¸øÇؼ ±×¿¡ °üÇؼ ¸¹ÀÌ ¸»ÇÏ´Â °Ç
ÀûÇÕÇÏÁö ¾Ê´Ù´Â °É ¸»ÇÒ·Á°í ÇßÁö¿ä. ³» »ý°¢À¸·Î
±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ °üÇØ ¸ðµÎ ¾Ë°í ±×·² ±âȸ¸¦ °¡Áø Àι°Àº
Áö±×ÇÁ¸®Æ® Á¦ÀÌ.½´¹ÌÆ®ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×´Â ±¤°í¿Í Áö½Ä
±¸¼ºÀÇ ¹®Á¦¸¦ Á¤È®È÷ ´Ù·é ¸¹Àº °ÍµéÀ» ÃâÆÇÇßÁö¿ä.
±×°ÍµéÀ» ´«¿©°Ü º¸¾Æ¾ß ÇÒ °Ì´Ï´Ù. ±×°ÍµéÀº µ¶ÀϾî·Î
ÃâÆǵǾúÁö¿ä.
AP:
Sure, I will look at his books of course. What
do you think about the diffusion of constructivism
today in Italy, in Germany and in the U.S.?
AP:¹°·ÐÀÌÁö¿ä.
±×ÀÇ Ã¥µéÀ» ´«¿©°Ü º¸°Ú½À´Ï´Ù. ¿À´Ã³¯ ÀÌŸ®¿¡¼,
µ¶ÀÏ¿¡¼, ±×¸®°í ¹Ì±¹¿¡¼ ±¸¼º·ÐÀÇ È®»ê°ú °ü·ÃÇؼ
¾îÂî »ý°¢ÇÏ½Ã°í °è½ÅÁö?
EvG:
Well...look, I can only give you my own very
subjective view, and the view is based largely
on how much mail I get, what sort of questions
I get, what kind of invitations I get if you
will, so it's very personal and I'm not the
only constructivist, so I don't know how characteristic
this would be of the others. I can only repeat
that Germany and Austria are the only places
where constructivism is taken seriously as a
philosophical orientation. In Italy, I think
it is discussed quite a lot, and people are
interested in it, but the most interest I have
found is in the area of psychotherapy and of
education. I don't know, you're the first media
person I come across in Italy, I don't know
any others.
EvG:
±Û½ê¿ä¡¦ À½¡¦, ³» ÁÖ°üÀû °ßÇظ¸À» ¸»ÇÒ ¼ö ÀÖÀ»
»ÓÀε¥, ±× °ßÇØ´Â ´ë°³´Â ³ªÇÑÅ× ¿Â ¸ÞÀÏÀÇ ¼ö,
³ªÇÑÅ× ¿Â Áú¹®ÀÇ Á¾·ùµé, ³»°¡ ¹ÞÀº ÃÊ´ëÀÇ Á¾·ùµé¿¡
ÀÇÁ¸ÇÏÁö¿ä. ±×·¡¼ ±×°ÍÀº ¸Å¿ì °³ÀÎÀûÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
¾Æ¿ï·¯ ³ª¸¸ÀÌ À¯ÀÏÇÑ ±¸¼º·ÐÀÚ°¡ ¾Æ´Õ´Ï´Ù. ±×·¸±â¿¡
ÀÌ¿¡ ´ëÇØ ´Ù¸¥ À̵éÀÌ ¾î¶»°Ô Ư¡ÁöÀ» Áö ³ª´Â
¸ð¸¨´Ï´Ù. ³»°¡ ´ÜÁö ¹Ýº¹ÇÒ ¼ö ÀÖ´Â °Ç, µ¶ÀÏ°ú
¿À½ºÆ®¸®¾Æ´Â ±¸¼º·ÐÀÌ Ã¶ÇÐÀû Á¤ÇâÀ¸·Î¼ ÁøÁöÇÏ°Ô
¹Þ¾Æµé¿©Áø À¯ÀÏÇÑ °÷À̶õ Á¡ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÀÌŸ®¿¡¼´Â,
³» »ý°¢¿¡, ±×°ÍÀº »ó´çÈ÷ ¸¹Àº Åä·ÐÀÌ ÀÖ¾ú°í
»ç¶÷µéÀº ±×¿¡ °ü½ÉÀ» °®°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù; ±×·¯³ª ³»°¡
¾Ë°í ÀÖ´Â ´ë´Ù¼ö °ü½ÉÀº ½É¸®Ä¡·á¿Í ±³À° ¿µ¿ª¿¡
¸ÂÃß¾îÁ® ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¸ð¸£°Ú³×¿ä. ÀÌÅ׸®¿¡¼´Â
´ç½ÅÀÌ ³»°¡ ¸¸³ ÃÖÃÊÀÇ ¸Åü °ü·Ã Àι°ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
ÀÌ¿Ü¿¡ ¾Æ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀº ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù.
AP:
I am proud and worried for this at the same
time...
AP:ÀںνÉÀ»
´À³¢¸ç µ¿½Ã¿¡ °ÆÁ¤ÀÌ µÇ³×¿ä.
EvG:
I don't know Umberto Eco or what he thinks of
constructivism. Umberto Eco knew all about Ceccato
because he came to the Centro di Cibernetica.
When I was there, this was in the late fifties
or early sixties, he came as a very young man
and was not very likeable. He thought he knew
everything. But I forgave him when I read "Il
nome della rosa" which I think is a wonderful
book. So you should ask him what he thinks of
constructivism, he must have heard the name
at least, by now. I think that would be very
interesting.
EvG:
³ª´Â ¿òº£¸£Åä ¿¡ÄÚµµ ±×°¡ »ý°¢ÇÑ ±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ ´ëÇؼµµ
¸ð¸¨´Ï´Ù. ±×°¡ Centro di Cibernetica¿¡ ¹æ¹®ÇÑ
°ÍÀ¸·Î º¸¾Æ ¿òº£¸£Åä ¿¡ÄÚ´Â ÄÉÄ«Åä¿¡ °üÇؼ´Â
¸ðµÎ ¾Ë°í ÀÖ¾ú¾î¿ä. ±×¶§ ³ª´Â °Å±â ÀÖ¾ú¾î¿ä.
¾Æ¸¶ 50³â´ë ¸»À̳ª 60³â´ë ÃÊÂëÀ̾ú¾î¿ä. ±×¶§
±×´Â ¾ÆÁÖ Àþ¾ú¾ú°í º°·Î È£°¨ÀÌ °¡Áö ¾Ê¾ÒÁö¿ä.
±×´Â ÀÚ½ÅÀÌ ¸ðµç °ÍÀ» ¾Ë°í ÀÖ´Ù°í »ý°¢Çß¾î¿ä.
ÇÏÁö¸¸, °æźÇÒ Ã¥À̶ó »ý°¢µÇ´Â "Àå¹ÌÀÇ
À̸§"À» ÀÐ°í ³ ±×¸¦ ¿ë¼ÇßÁö¿ä. ±×·¸±â¿¡,
´ç½ÅÀº ±×°¡ ±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ ´ëÇØ ¾îÂî »ý°¢ÇÏ´Â Áö ±×ÇÑÅ×
¹°¾î¾ß ÇÒ °Ì´Ï´Ù. ±×´Â Àû¾îµµ ÀÌÁ¦±îÁö ±¸¼º·ÐÀ̶õ
À̸§Àº µèÁö ¾ÊÀ» ¼ö´Â ¾ø¾úÀ» °Ì´Ï´Ù. ±×°ÍÀº
¾ÆÁÖ Èï¹Ì·Î¿ï ²¨¶ó´Â »ý°¢ÀÌ µì´Ï´Ù.
AP:
Please let's talk about your experience, so
you said in the German speaking world it was
very well considered and still it is considered.
In Italy...
AP:
±³¼ö´ÔÀÇ °æÇè¿¡ °ü·ÃÇØ ¸»¾¸ÇØÁÖ½ÃÁÒ. ¾ÆÁÖ ±íÀÌ
¼÷°íµÈ, ±×¸®°í ¿©ÀüÈ÷ ¼÷°íµÇ°í ÀÖ´Â µ¶ÀÏ¾î ¼¼°è¿¡¼
¸»¾¸Çϼ̵íÀÌ¡¦. ÀÌŸ®¿¡¼´Â ¾î¶² Áö¡¦
EvG:
I think in Italy there's quite a number of people
who are seriously interested in it. From my
personal knowledge, there are people in psychotherapy
and there are people in education and then there
is the group, who are the heirs and the pupils
of Ceccato in Milan, who are propagating constructivism
too in their own way. In this country (USA,
ndr), it's much less general: well, this is
a large country so you can't really compare
it to the others, there's a lot of talk about
constructivism in education, in educational
research and specifically in mathematics education
and, recently, the last five or six years, also
in science education. But as I said, I do not
believe there's a single department of philosophy
here where constructivism has been mentioned
or would be mentioned.
EvG:
ÀÌŸ®¿¡´Â, ³» »ý°¢À¸·Î, ±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ ÁøÁöÇÏ°Ô °ü½ÉÀ»
µÎ°í ÀÖ´Â »ó´çÈ÷ ¸¹Àº »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ³»
°³ÀÎÀû Áö½Ä¿¡¼ º¸ÀÚ¸é, ½É¸®Ä¡·á ºÐ¾ß¿¡ »ç¶÷µéÀÌ
ÀÖ°í ±³À°¿¡µµ »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ÀÖ°í ±×¸®°í ±×¹Û¿¡µµ
ÇÑ ±×·ìÀÌ Àִµ¥, ±×µéÀº ¹Ð¶õ¿¡ ÀÖ´Â ÄÉÄ«ÅäÀÇ
»ó¼ÓÀÚµé°ú ÇлýµéÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×µé ¶ÇÇÑ ±×µé ÀÚ½ÅÀÇ
¹æ½ÄÀ¸·Î ±¸¼º·ÐÀ» º¸±ÞÇÏ°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ÀÌ ³ª¶ó(¹Ì±¹)¿¡¼´Â
±×º¸´Ù´Â ÀϹÝÀûÀÌÁö ¾Ê½À´Ï´Ù: ÀÌ ³ª¶ó´Â Å« ³ª¶ó¿©¼
»ç½Ç»ó ºñ±³ÇÑ´Ù´Â °Ç ÇÒ ¼ö ÀÖ´Â ÀÏÀÌ ¾Æ´Ò °Ì´Ï´Ù.
±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ °üÇÑ ¸¹Àº ´ã·ÐµéÀÌ ±³À° ºÐ¾ß¿¡¼ ±³À°
¿¬±¸ ºÐ¾ß¿¡¼, ±×¸®°í ƯÈ÷ ¼öÇÐ ±³À° ºÐ¾ß¿¡¼
ÇàÇØÁö°í ÀÖÀ¸¸ç ±×¸®°í ÃÖ±Ù 5-6³â »çÀÌ °úÇÐ
±³À°¿¡¼µµ ÇàÇØÁö°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×·¯³ª, ³» ¸»ÇÑ
´ë·Î, ¿©±â¿¡´Â ±¸¼º·ÐÀ» ¾ð±ÞÇß°í, ȤÀº ±×°ÍÀ»
¾ð±ÞÇÒ Á¤Á÷ÇÑ Ã¶ÇÐ ºÐ°ú°¡ ÀÖ´Ù°í´Â ¹ÏÁö ¾Ê½À´Ï´Ù.
AP:
I see, and what about Spain? Do you know?
AP:¾Ë°Ú½À´Ï´Ù,
±×·³ ½ºÆäÀο¡¼´Â ¾î¶»½À´Ï±î? ¾Æ½Ã´Â °ÍÀÌ?
EvG:
I don't know. In Portugal there is a Piaget
institute which is very interested in constructivism
and does a lot of things in schools. I have
been there several times and they're very active.
In Spain I do not know. I know that in Barcelona
there are some people who are interested in
constructivism.
EvG:¾Æ´Â
°ÍÀÌ ¾ø³×¿ä. Æ÷¸£Åõ°¥¿¡´Â, ±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ ³ôÀº °ü½ÉÀ»
µÎ°í ÀÖÀ¸¸ç, Çб³µé¿¡¼ ¸¹Àº °ÍµéÀ» ÇàÇÏ°í ÀÖ´Â
»ß¾ÆÁ¦ ¿¬±¸¼Ò°¡ ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×°÷¿¡ ¿©·¯ ¹ø µé·È´Âµ¥
±×µéÀº ¸Å¿ì È°¹ßÇÏ°Ô ¿òÁ÷ÀÌ°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ½ºÆäÀο¡¼´Â
¾Æ´Â °ÍÀÌ ¾ø³×¿ä. ¹Ù¸£¼Ð·Î³ª¿¡ ±¸¼º·Ð¿¡ °ü½ÉÀÌ
ÀÖ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ¸î¸î ÀÖ´Ù´Â °Ç ¾Ë°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
AP:
Thank you very much and I sincerely wish constructivism
will become a more and more popular epistemology.
AP:
Á¤¸» °í¸¿½À´Ï´Ù. ¾Æ¿ï·¯ ±¸¼º·ÐÀÌ ´õ´õ¿í Àαâ
ÀÖ´Â ÀνķÐÀÌ µÇ±â¸¦ Áø½ÉÀ¸·Î ¹Ù¶ø´Ï´Ù.
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